July 29, 2011

I was there that day as well, listening to the Rwy 27 freq as the controllers were trying to sort out the mess that happened after the F-16 crashed. I thought that they did a great job getting all the ducks (planes) in a row and landed. I didn't think that the controller was too verbose at all and did admirable job of safely getting the airport shutdown.
posted by matt byczek on July 30, 2011	[report abuse]

The tower at osh communicates the way i wish everyone would at uncontrolled fields, by plane type instead of n numbers. I cant remember numbers very well but piper or cessna, rv etc. i can. You confused the communication when the tower called you remos and you responded with your n number.
posted by on July 30, 2011	[report abuse]

I agree with you Paul, he was too amped up. He's coming across as three people at once - controller, coach "good job, good job there", and welcoming committee all in the busiest airspace in the world. He's trying too hard and makes a confusing situation even worse.
posted by Dan James on July 30, 2011	[report abuse]

I was in my RV8 in the long line of planes taxiing out on temporary runway 36R/18L during all of this. After no movement for a long time, they had us all shut down engines. After a wait they then had us start up again, do a 180 in place and they shot us off carrier deck style to the south from where the rear plane was. From my perspective, the controllers did a fantastic job especially considering the chaos they had on their hands. They had planes stacked up at Fisk, a whole morning's worth of departures (the field was IFR all morning) and a fast approaching air show.

posted by Luis Luciani on July 30, 2011

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Yes Paul, the controller did use too much and unnecessary verbiage. I think the speed might have gone over better without the extra verbiage like "welcome to the show." Most good controllers like to get a little personal with the pilots but not with a traffic count such as OSH. At Love field we had the Texas-OU game fly-in and I loved working it because it is what I call "pure air traffic control." You have a spotter and a coordinator that does all your phone work and coordination with the ground controller, all you do is control air traffic. During this type event you were usually only of the position for one hour but at the end of that hour I would be hard pressed to give you any details of the session without listening to the tapes. Ray ATC Ret.

posted by Ray Laughinghouse on July 30, 2011

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Very interesting reading this article today, as I was listening to liveatc.net during this exact time frame and saved that particular clip because the controller had his hair on fire. I thought it was a good one for my "interesting Oshkosh ATC clips" archive. At the time, I thought the controller was talking a bit much but gave him the benefit of the doubt due to the high traffic load and single runway operation. He certainly kept his cool.

posted by P Weeds on July 30, 2011

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Paul - I'd like to address your last point where you discourage IFR operations. It's unclear to whom you're addressing that pearl of wisdom, but in your haste to turn a witty phrase you seem to gloss over the fact that IFR operations are a necessity for some of the airplanes coming in and out of AirVenture. I arrived right smack in the middle of the time period you're talking about, immediately after the F-16 incident (landed about 12:15) in a Learjet 31A on an IFR flight plan. We were carrying a load of VIPs from a major avionics company. We had a slot and played by all the rules. The ceilings were very marginal, as you know, and had only recently improved from IFR. Coming in VFR on the Turbine/Warbird arrival was not an option. Maybe a Cessna 172 doesn't need to file IFR in and out, but please keep in mind there are plenty of heavy turbine aircraft coming in from hundreds and thousands of miles away that need to be on an IFR flight plan so that we can get up above 18,000. With the marginal VFR ceilings, there was no way for us to descend low enough to cancel and come in VFR. One last thing, please - the curmudgeonly routine in your editorials is getting very stale. You might think it's cute, but if all you do is find ways to pick on other people and bemoan the general state of affairs, you're not making for very interesting journalism.

posted by Eric Basile on July 30, 2011

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After working OSH from '94-'98, I found that position to be the hardest one of all. You are a conduit for your team of spotters, and all you're doing is repeating what they tell you. Streams from Fisk, the prison, straight-in IFR arrivals, and now you're expected to pick up the island warbirds arrivals as well? Yes, keep the mic keyed until Fisk is emptied or held and the streams are joined into one. Let the rest hold until you get that sorted out. You heard all the squeals that prevailed when he unkeyed. It's pure chaos with one runway. Paul, get a tower tour to understand what they're seeing and doing on a normal shift, then criticize. By the way, did you quit doing demos to help them out, or was it airshow time before you could go back out? Dave ATC Retired

posted by David Slosson on July 30, 2011

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Mr. Basile, I believe what Mr Bertorelli was referring to was not the Lear pilot flying in marginal weather, but the Cessna or Beech pilot flying in severe clear. Personally, I think that goes for all times of the year, and not just Oshkosh. I know Cessna 172 pilots who fly IFR every time the fly, would literally file to go do pattern work if they could, which makes no sense to me at all. Then again, I don't have my instrument rating, but the last time I checked, being IFR did not guarantee you complete separation, and in VFR conditions, it is still up to the PIC to see and avoid, to some extent. Back to the original subject, I was listening to a scanner on the ground at OSH on Monday and Tuesday, and I was impressed by the professionalism and quick thinking of the controllers. At one point the had a flight of five L-39s go around, and the controller for 36 moved all traffic off of 36 onto 27 before the flight was on downwind. Albeit, I was not there nor was I listening to the controllers when the F-16 overran, so I cannot refute their ability to handle an emergency.

posted by Steven Wood on July 30, 2011

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The tower controller had a rhythm that seemed to work, so why criticize it? BTW, if frequency congestion was a concern, why add to it with a demo flight that could have been accomplished elsewhere or a different time at OSH? Ev Lake
posted by Everett Lake on July 30, 2011	[report abuse]

"....None of this amounts to a complaint, by the way, nor an insinuation that OSH tower wasn't doing extraordinary work, because it certainly was...." Eight paragraphs suggesting otherwise does not seem to add up. I've never done the job of an ATC or tower controller. Therefore, I would never presume to offer suggestions to improve their performance.
posted by Edd Weninger on July 30, 2011	[report abuse]

"Paul, get a tower tour to understand what they're seeing and doing on a normal shift, then criticize. By the way, did you quit doing demos to help them out, or was it airshow time before you could go back out?" Have done that, actually. Several times. Video, audio...etc. And by the way, I had this tape reviewed by an experienced OSH ATCer whom I think you probably know. When we went back out, the airport was pretty dead. Maybe a half dozen departures on 27. Demo seemed reasonable. I might not have done it otherwise. I don't usually fly demos at OSH for this reason. But this was the only opportunity.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on July 30, 2011

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"curmudgeonly routine " Ah, it's a gift, I guess. People who like this blog tell me it's an anti-dote to the pollyanish fluff that appears everywhere else. People who hate it want me to get a personality transplant. (That's what it would take.) And yes, the IFR comment referred to the odd Bonanza or Skyhawk arriving IFR on a clear day, not people whose op specs won't allow anything else. I think it's a fair comment.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on July 30, 2011

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Fair enough, Paul. I've heard lots better and lots worse than your segment, especially under the gun like he was. That is one hot seat to occupy on a VFR day, worse when MVFR, and terrible when an emergency causes problems in the flow. If you unkey, you lose the frequency as everyone tries to get in with a request. Speaking constantly gives the expectation for everyone to listen up and follow directions first. Some controllers handle the position well, most do only a passable job. Fly safe.

posted by David Slosson on July 30, 2011

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As a controller at this years show, I would like to comment on a few things. First, the pilots flying into OSH do an outstanding job in an extremely high traffic, high complexity arena. You guys are the ones that make us look good. I was working FISK that morning, and no less then three times we had to place people in the hold due to the accident, departure saturation, and arrival saturation. One poor guy actually held all three times due to his timing. Luckily we were able to accommodate an get him in. We were busy, but not near as busy as I have seen it in the past. As for my friend working local North, I obviously think he did a great job! Do we repeat a lot of things? YES!! but some ofthat is for our own sake. Back home, we write down call signs and positions, and other things. Here, NO WAY!! Too darn busy! So when we repeat, a LOT of times it is to remind us what we are doing. But it is also used as a tool for emphasis, especially if the plan changes. If I initially tell you to land on the orange dot because you are following someone, and they get off quicker than expected, i will probably ask you to continue to the green dot, green dot please. That is so the guy behind you can land.

posted by Bill Buvens on July 30, 2011

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Continued... With this many airplanes, the plan changes by the second! And when all a sudden you lose a runway, holy cow! At the point you came in, I am suprised they didn't tell you to hold and let you come in. The first priority is getting the aircraft in the immediate vicinity of the airport down, then start working out and cleaning it all up. That is why he eventually did unkey. And before he did, he wanted to make sure he could get it back by giving a few basic tidbits prior to releasing. As for the banter... Look, most of the pilots are nervous. They are not used to being that close to so many others, and varying types. Sometimes, they forget to fly the plane. And there will be screwups, on both sides of the mike. We try to make people feel comfortable and welcome. It eases the tension. So I am sorry if a few "good job guys" or "Welcome to the show" bother you. We will continue to say it, because most of the pilots appreciate it, and it is meant as a sincere welcome, whether you were coming to the show, or inadvertently just became a part of it! Proud to wear pink!!

posted by Bill Buvens on July 30, 2011

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Dear friends: I did not fly to Oshkosh or Sun-N-Fun, ever. I appreciate these comments and think any pilot would. A few extra words are OK anytime. Keep up the good work. CFII fly IFR a lot.
posted by frank szachta on July 31, 2011	[report abuse]

Good stuff, Bill. Thanks for the post and all the good work at OSH.
posted by Paul Bertorelli on July 31, 2011	[report abuse]

I actually appreciate the "great job-welcome to OSH. I typically file an arrival slot, then cancel it and do the VFR arrival if the wx is good. This year it was lousy and was glad I had it. Paul - I thought you were NORDO anyhow - why do you care what ATC says! : )
posted by Josh Johnson on July 31, 2011	[report abuse]

I came in with the bonanza mass arrival and departed VFR Tuesday evening off of 9. I have never been so embarrassed by my fellow pilots as I was that evening. There were 3 or 4 abusing the atc person handling departures, to the point of profanity. I wish they had the guts to identify themselves but of course they do not and hide behind their radios. Atc was doing the best they could and doing a great job. Those people reminded me of the drunk adults at a kids baseball game abusing the umpire, coaches, and players. On behalf of all pilots I apologize to atc.

posted by John Fulton on July 31, 2011

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I arrived in an IFR slot in an Eclipse Jet Friday to 27. I thought ATC did a great job. Paul's points are well taken too, but the circus atmosphere is part of going to OshKosh. I am surprise there aren't more mid-airs because as was pointed out even with IFR arrival I got several traffic reports with "type and altitude unknown". Good points on both sides above, but let's remember this is an airshow and we didn't have to pay user fees for a great service! John Wright

posted by john wright on July 31, 2011

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Thanks for the inside input. I've been operating (mostly) within the system since mid '60s and have always found people on the other end of the comms to be doing their best. Even in some difficult situations. At the last AOPA meeting in KLGB, I am local and often listen to the comms from my office. I was, as someone also mentioned above, embarrassed by the behavior of some pilots. Some were way over their heads in a busy controlled environment. Some were arrogant and demanding. Paul B. might address these issues in the future (oh yes, he tried with the Inhofe incident). Well, we're all not perfect…

posted by Edd Weninger on July 31, 2011

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The above is addressed to Mr. Buvens... Somehow clipped off.
posted by Edd Weninger on July 31, 2011	[report abuse]

I'm not sure what to address, Ed. I think the vast majority of pilots flying into OSH do well with it, given the stress. A small percentage get flustered and a small percentage shouldn't be there at all. While I like the idea of the type fly-ins, the execution hasn't always been good. A few years ago, the Mooney group made a hash of it and judging by comments above, this year it was the Bonanza group. I haven't parked at OSH for many years now because I could never afford to get pinned down by weather, due to editorial deadlines. Somehow, I end up flying while there, however.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on July 31, 2011

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Anger, and any form of ridicule, or judgment is based on fear, which in this case is probably based on a lack of knowledge. As pilots, we aren't in the control tower and have very incomplete knowledge of how they are dealing with the circus. Everyday, as something of a neophyte IFR pilot I commend and thank ATC for keeping me safe to the best of their ability while putting up with my imperfections and training requests. We all have different ways to deal with stress, and try to do this without fear, which is in its self problematic. It does seem like a "picky" line of journalism and to me that doesn't warrant much attention.

posted by Sam Ferguson on July 31, 2011

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"....I think the vast majority of pilots flying into OSH do well with it, given the stress. A small percentage get flustered and a small percentage shouldn't be there at all...." Yes, next time a big event comes up, maybe suggest pilots thinking of flying in to a strictly controlled space, (the ones you (and I) might categorize as shouldn't be there at all) catch an hour or so with an instructor comfortable in that environment. Or, go online a listen to live ATC comms to get some familiarity. A pilot friend has been a taxi/parking flag man at the LGB AOPA meetings and says that some pilots ignore them also, after being told by GC to follow their direction. Arrogance or ignorance, I can’t say. Clear skies,

posted by Edd Weninger on July 31, 2011

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In 26 years in ATC I have heard a lot of show boating water walkers. this one of the best
posted by jack gossett on July 31, 2011	[report abuse]

At last I can get this off my chest: some years ago at ORD I had just finished my runup for takeoff in a PA30, and was trying to tell the tower local controller I was ready, but he and the pilot of a large airliner about 3/4 of a mile down the taxiway were discussing the "little plane" blocking the runup pad. They jabbered away for at least 30 seconds before I could finally get a word in edgewise that I had been ready for sometime and couldn't break in on the buddy-buddy conversation. This was late night, very little traffic.

posted by Mac Hayes on July 31, 2011

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Nice job of Monday morning quarterbacking Paul. As a controller, I can tell you that every session can be improved upon. He spoke alot, but it doesn't sound like the runway could have been hit any harder so while it may have sounded better, no one else was getting on the ground. So long as were playing quarterback, lets look at your decision to take a demo flight. While you were demoing, I and 20 others were holding at Fisk. For an hour and a half. 10 others were holding southwest of us. Did you listen to Fisk before before departure? Did you tell atc you wanted to go out and come right back? I saw aircraft depart the hold for other destinations undoubtably while you were landing. There is no simulator for OSH, on either side of the radio.

posted by Dan Ruehl on August 1, 2011

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"Did you listen to Fisk before before departure? Did you tell atc you wanted to go out and come right back?" I don't know if you're aware of this, but there's an unpublished procedure for demos flown from the north side, off 27. I didn't attend the briefing, but the demo pilot did. Far as I know, we flew it as briefed. For what it's worth, when we departed, there was no info on Fisk or the airport ops in general. There were only a half dozen departures on 27 at the time. Look, like I said, from the pilot's side, the control would have worked better if amped down a little. Not meant to be a pile on but merely a passing observation.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on August 1, 2011

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If osh has been ifr and closed all morning one would assume there are aircraft waiting If in doubt, listen to the frequency. Published or not, your one more airplane in a too many airplanes situation.
posted by Dan Ruehl on August 1, 2011	[report abuse]

Note to Pilots: Be prepared for last-minute changes to your plans. Paul, the procedures in the NOTAM work well overall. You said you're not complaining, but I can't help but see your article as pointless controller-bashing. Your special arrival procedure (which I'm familiar with) required a position report, and I think you were just upset you couldn't get a word in edgewise. The published procedures are designed to work with a minimum of pilot communication. Normally there are more "holes" in the radio chatter, but you have to give the controller more credit for handling an abnormal situation. If you were having trouble getting a word in, perhaps you should have seen it as a red flag, and either joined the Fisk arrival (holding, if necessary) or landed at Brennand Airport 10 miles to the north. I don't see why a Remos demo flight should have gotten VIP treatment during a situation where there had just been an accident.

posted by Kate Bernard on August 1, 2011

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"pointless controller bashing" Nope, merely my observations. And I wasn't upset about a thing.
posted by Paul Bertorelli on August 1, 2011	[report abuse]

Even though it might take 1-2 Sec more per landing, the “nice job” and “welcome to the show” are an integral part of what makes the Oshkosh experience unique. My first landing at the show was 28 years ago. As a relatively low time private pilot, I walked just a bit taller after that. Part of my pride came from the “nice job Cherokee” I got from the controller. I felt that I actually was part of the show and had accomplished something every pilot wants to do but very actually have. Paul, have you become so jaded that you’ve lost touch with just how special flying into Airventure is for most pilots?

posted by Kris Larson on August 2, 2011

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Finally, something on which I disagree with Paul Bertorelli! Wow - he is human after all! :-)
posted by James Herd on August 2, 2011	[report abuse]

Maybe 25 years ago Edwards AFB held a "all pilots welcome to fly in" airshow, no formalities, just show up within a couple of hours' window & land. Never happened before or since, as they obviously had no conception of how many pilots would jump at the chance to land at the home of the X-Planes. The tower freq was nothing but a sea of hetrodyne squeals from everyone transmitting at once and the poor controller (some young GI, I'm sure) was reduced to repeatedly broadcasting "all arrivals use north or south patterns runway is 300 feet wide land two abreast keep rolling be careful". Somehow we all got down OK but there were some near-fistfights in the tiedown area.

posted by John Wilson on August 3, 2011

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I flew to Sun'n'Fun last year for my first fly-in. (Fortunately I missed the tornado this year.) I was a low time private pilot and was apprehensive about possibly screwing up, especially the landing. I was really pleased when I got a "good job" from the controller. Of course, I got deflated somewhat later, when, watching and listening to later arrivals, I realized he wasn't complimenting me on my landing, just my ability to follow directions. (Land on or beyond the orange dot.) I watched a number of pilots ignore repeated instructions to turn base at mid field. They seemed to be fixated on landing on the numbers. I saw a couple of twins who were probably PO'd at having to go around because the plane ahead of them landed too soon and taxied too slowly.

posted by John Worsley on August 3, 2011

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Paul, I think it is all about perception and the big picture. The tower Controller established a sense of urgency and the need for pilots to remain "wide eyed and bushy tailed". I listened to the recording and I give the controller a 95%, 5% off for folksy (friendly and informal), all else was smooth and clear.
posted by Rafael Sierra on August 3, 2011	[report abuse]

Futhermore, we give your column an 80%, 20% off for bitch-slapping the Controller.
posted by Rafael Sierra on August 3, 2011	[report abuse]

I don't know if it is a sign of the times but I think it is a problem so many people appear unable to accept the concept of critique, negatively labeling it with terms like "bitch slap" and "controller bashing", and following up with ad-hominem attacks. Honest feedback (not spin or happy-talk) is an essential element of improvement, and editing critique so that no feelings can ever be harmed rarely improves the critique. An even weirder element is the ad-hominem crowd seems to believe _their_ "bitch slaps" are valid critique! And Paul: I don't mind the 0.5 second "great job" because it is useful critique. I'd like to hear some 0.5 second "needs work" sprinkled in there when appropriate.

posted by Robert Withrow on August 5, 2011

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I would never term what I said here a bitch slap. Not even a dope slap. It's a slip of paper in the bottom of the suggestion box. Reading it after the fact, I see I got the emphasis wrong. I intended it to be good job, but with suggestions for improvement. That's what happens when you don't let blogs sit overnight before posting.
posted by Paul Bertorelli on August 6, 2011	[report abuse]

It takes a man of character to rethink and restate his position. Now you are back on your pedestal, Paul! :-) I still think there is huge benefit to a constant ATC dialog at KOSH - to repeat important messages until all of us hear, and to add encouragement to settle our nerves also.
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