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May 27, 2011

Why Supressing N-Numbers Is a Bad Idea

By Paul Bertorelli

Why is it that the bizjet community seems forever unable to get ahead of the fat cat image that seems to attract daily media stories like flies to honey? (I could use a more vulgar analogy but in a rare display of restraint, I'm applying the rules of polite society.)

One reason is how we, as an industry, respond to stories like this one in the Wall Street Journal this week. As journalism goes, it's not much of a story. It's a bit light on detail and a bit overplayed. But it does raise one uncomfortable question: Is it true that up to a third of bizjet trips are to popular resorts like Aspen and Palm Beach? And do companies who were asked about these trips really expect us to believe that these were business events? The story lacks sufficient detail to really flesh this claim out in a credible way, so I am, frankly, a little skeptical. I'm just as skeptical of the claim by company flacks that these trips are to actual business events. Yeah, right. We all know why business conferences and symposia are held in Aspen and Steamboat Springs. They're just ski trips by another name. If the destination is Marathon Key, substitute sport fishing.

But what's wrong with this? Nothing really, if the company is privately held or, if publically held, the stockholders and board are okay with the airplane being used this way. The reality is that the highly paid CEOs of companies with flight departments negotiate the best deal they can for pay and perks and if that includes personal use of the jet, so be it. They just need to understand that they are vulnerable to the fat cat claim if these trips are revealed and stockholders by all means have an interest in knowing that.

And that's where things get a little hinky. The FAA has a program called BARR (Blocked Aircraft Registration Request), which suppresses N-numbers from the otherwise publically accessible air traffic datastream that allows anyone with a computer to see the comings and goings of aircraft in domestic airspace. The ostensible reason is for security and privacy, protecting private aircraft from prying eyes for competitive reasons. Congress is now debating whether to dial this program back, requiring a higher bar and justification for the N-number suppression. I think they should just end it entirely. The FAA is publically funded, works in the public interest and it shouldn't be in the business of disguising aircraft movements. If security is really an issue, don't release the data in real time, offset it by 24 hours for those who request that.

In defending the continuation of BARR, NBAA makes the utterly unconvincing argument that there's no compelling public interest to have this information in public view and that it's a violation of privacy. But I'd argue that there are two good countervailing reasons: One is just the principle of sunshine in government operations in the first place, the second is that stockholders ought to be able to verify how these bizjets are used so they can ask the right questions if they're so inclined. The FAA shouldn't put itself in the position of shilling for these companies. And I doubt if the claims of competitive revelations are meaningful in many of the cases, unless we're talking about competing for the best lift chairs at Aspen.

The thing is, if we continue to argue that aircraft are an important business tool--and I believe that to be true--the way they are used ought to stand up to any scrutiny. Burying otherwise public information behind a wall of FAA secrecy just raises suspicions and makes the industry a big juicy plum for the fat cat claim. That strikes me as counter interest.

Government has a well-established predilection for secrecy that should be resisted at every turn, especially when it involves trivial revelations like this. Right now, for example, I'm being forced to file a FOIA claim to shine a little light on the FAA ARC fuel committee activities. This should not be. Activities like this need to be out in the open.


Comments

All good points - perhaps the data release delay should be a month, though. Why? The best reason I've heard a company make for not wanting the data released is competition in contract negotiations. If a competitor knows that your company's bizjet went to a certain city where you don't have any offices but a mutual competitor did... and it happened a couple of times in a row... well, that could be pretty useful info for your competitor, wouldn't it?

posted by Roy Etter on May 27, 2011[report abuse]

I'm afraid I'm not with you on this one Paul. I could follow your same logic to release of proprietary data, product costs, etc. Now, if the company is receiving massive gov't subsidies, etc, perhaps releasing their flight data should be part of the deal, but not for private business.

posted by Josh Johnson on May 27, 2011[report abuse]

I also disagree. It is not the government's business to publish private citizens comings and goings. If the government is really going to shed sunlight than perhaps the use and abuse of the large bizjet fleet at Andrews AFB should fall under this. With obvious exceptions for truly sensitive missions.

posted by John Lucas on May 27, 2011[report abuse]

I dont want my flights monitored by the public either. If the general public wants to know my transportation habits let them file a request. Otherwise those who wish for privacy will start avoiding flight following.

posted by Brad Vaught on May 28, 2011[report abuse]

Paul is 100 percent right on this one.

"Comings and goings" in the national air space system are not protected by any kind of privacy principles. That is absurd.

If you don't want the air space system to keep track of your comings and goings then fly VFR. Simple as that. It's a good thing we still have that freedom.

I would say that pleasure trips are actually much more than one third of bizjet flights. The reason NBAA is against this is because it could in fact result in less bizjet travel, if in fact shareholders and other stakeholder scrutiny does in fact rein in some of this unnecessary flying.

And that is what it is, unnecessary. Fortune 1000 executives have enormous compensation packages. They should not be using company aircraft for pleasure trips. Most of them can afford to pay for their own jet taxis, or even buy their own jet.

It's time the business barons started paying their own freight.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 29, 2011[report abuse]

Sorry Paul, you're completely wrong on this point. Business users are not the only ones affected by this. Would you take exception to having your driving habits be available to the public? Why is an aircraft any different?

Business use of aircraft is up to the owners of the company, no one else. It is not subject to the approval of anyone else. If the owners of the company don't like the way an aircraft is used, it's up to them to curtail that.

Further one can register for a notification whenever a particular aircraft departs IFR. Is this wise? Let's say some criminal wants to target your house. They log on to a website and will be notified when you're not home, and how long you're not going to be there.

posted by Yves Eynard on May 29, 2011[report abuse]

Progressivism is the gradual, incremental reduction of personal, property, and privacy rights. Progressives are always thinking of the "next step" beyond the obvious demand. That said, Paul, if you are so free to not emphatically demand your rights to privacy, then you must prepare yourself for the government transferring your property and personal rights away in quick succession.

When a government fears the people, we have freedom ... when the people fear the government, we have tyranny.

posted by Phil Derosier on May 29, 2011[report abuse]

Yves, the owners of publicly owned companies are people like you and me.

How can we possibly know how these airplanes are being used unless we are given the information by our government---which is also owned by us, ostensibly.

That is the point. We have a right to know how these well paid executives are using these corporate aircraft. If they are treating them as party toys then there are a lot of shareholders who would be interested in knowing that. Problem is now you can't.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 29, 2011[report abuse]

I'm pretty sure many of the trips are pleasure. I recently landed at a small airport in Georgia and the ramp was loaded with heavy iron; from G-IVs down to a PC-12. I asked what big business convention was going on and got the reply that, "Nope, it was Quail hunting season".

Now I have no problem with guys spending their own money however. But I wonder how many of these hunters recently got bailouts or sold their stock options after artificially raising the value. Greed at the top seems to have no bounds these days; maybe it's time to start reeling them in a little. If they don't want to be tracked, they could always charter. Oh, but wait, it is a little harder to hide those invoices, isn't it?

posted by Stephen Phoenix on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, Would you also be for publicly posting everyone's car tag/licenses and their travels? The FAA and the government already know where each plane is coming from and going to. The point is, why should this be available to the public? I was very surprised by your stance on this issue.

posted by Joel Hall on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

What makes anybody think they have a right to pry into the private business of any company? I'm sure that much of the private use of company aircraft falls under the category of "perks" of the job. I don't see anyone here complaining about high paid execs using limo services to get to work and back. It's just part of the compensation package. As stated previously I'm sure if company executives were doing something they were not supposed to with company aircraft it would be dealt with internally.

posted by Bruce Bennett on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

What I haven't seen anywhere so far, either in the articles or the comments, is that all of the corps with flight departments take large tax write-offs for the operation of their aircraft. So it's not just the board and the stockholders who have an interest... you and I are paying for large portions of these junkets.

posted by Eric Poole on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Sorry that my name wasn't on the last post. I had entered it into "My Account" on Avweb but apparently it got lost.

What I haven't seen anywhere so far, either in the articles or the comments, is that all of the corps with flight departments take large tax write-offs for the operation of their aircraft. So it's not just the board and the stockholders who have an interest... you and I are paying for large portions of these junkets.

Maybe the fairest solution would be to allow truly private aircraft, that receive no tax benefits and don't belong to corporations, to hide their trips. Hard to imagine how that would be enforced, though.

posted by Eric Poole on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

You know, the more I think of this, the more I recall that this is an argument of entitlement to high privilege tends to be sole domain of elite progressive policy makers. Nancy Pelosi — jetting coast to coast every darn weekend in a government Boeing as House Speaker — comes to mind. The former Soviets were also very good at this form of elitism.

Paul, be careful for what you wish for.

posted by Phil Derosier on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

The right to travel in privacy is a fundamental right in our country. The BARR program allows people to do that, whether it is for competitive, privacy, or security(these are high net worth individuals) reasons. Yes they are using the ATC system, but that is paid for in fuel taxes. Yes, they deduct these aircraft, but there are limits on deductibility for pleasure trips. Yes, the stockholders have a right to know, but not the general public. This is as invasive as tsa strip searches to get on airlines. Both are wrong.

posted by Roy Zesch on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

RZ: "Yes, they deduct these aircraft, but there are limits on deductibility for pleasure trips.". That's true, and that's why you will never, ever see one of these junkets recorded as a "pleasure trip"; always an excuse will be found to write the trip off to business and take a tax writeoff.

posted by Eric Poole on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

You want privacy? Privatize the system. Until then every government employee (ATC) and aircraft should be tracked, recorded, monitored and published so anyone can know what they are doing at any time. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz They cannot be trusted to do the right thing when nobody is looking.

posted by Jed Crawford on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

In all the discussions I've read, no one has mentioned the risk an owner/pilot has to his or her property while away flying. For those who have their plane registerd in their name, all a bad guy has to do is look up their tail # on flight aware, determine they are away on vacation, and head on over to their home.

posted by joe howley on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

WOW! Have to give Paul credit for stirring the pot! I have to wonder why we have a public OR private tracking system? What fundamental use is it? Sure in real time ATC needs to know who you are and where you are going, but why anybody else? The next thing that has probably already happened, is we will all be tracked by our cell phones (all new phones are required to have GPS). I would say that if they want to do away with the BARR plan, do away with all the "tracking".

posted by Sam Ferguson on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

WOW! Have to give Paul credit for stirring the pot! I have to wonder why we have a public OR private tracking system? What fundamental use is it? Sure in real time ATC needs to know who you are and where you are going, but why anybody else? The next thing that has probably already happened, is we will all be tracked by our cell phones (all new phones are required to have GPS). I would say that if they want to do away with the BARR plan, do away with all the "tracking".

posted by Sam Ferguson on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Joe H: Yeah, Yves mentioned that...

posted by Eric Poole on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

This whole argument is moot. In the near future, with ADS-B, every airplane is broadcasting its N number and a network of amateur ADS-B snoopers will be able to track any airplane in real time. This already exists in Europe for the most part. So you guys are arguing about closing the gate when the fence is already down. Go to to see an example. Unlike ASDI, this is *real time*, include *VFR*, and *cannot* be blocked. Wake up and realize this argument is meaningless, you fly, you will be tracked.

posted by on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Search for Plane Finder AR for an example. (URLs are apparently removed, sigh).

posted by on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Who cares if corporate execs are flying in the planes their company owns to Aspen. It's like no big surprise. Visit Nantucket or East Hampton some long summer weekend. Companies make money for themselves, their employees and the stock holders, and how they spend it is a matter of private commerce.

I'd be more interested in where Barney Frank and his partner are jetting off to on vacation on either the tax payer's dollars or some lobbyist's Gulfstream. But you can bet those flights will be BARR'd under the legitimate security reason claim.

That is NOT transparency. It's government business as usual.

posted by Jerry Plante on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

JP: "Who cares if corporate execs are flying in the planes their company owns to Aspen."

I care. They're doing it partly with my tax dollars as they come up with lame excuses to call it a "business" trip and take big tax write-offs for the use of their corporate airplanes.

posted by Eric Poole on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Eric Poole and Stephen Phoenix make the only valid points here. It is not only shareholders whose money is being frittered by high living execs, but taxpayers too because all of these "business" trips are taxpayer subsidized.

Some really misguided comments here. The right to travel in privacy? Where does this "right" exist? You cannot buy a ticket and board an airliner without giving your name and other identifying information.

A "bad" guy using flightaware to burgle your home while you area away. Well that is beyond commenting.

"Prying" into the private business of any company? If it is a publicly owned company then the shareholding public has a right to know how the company airplanes are being used.

It is well beyond time that the robber baron class started being held to account for their extravagant living off taxpayer dole and unsuspecting shareholders who are treated with contempt while their money is frittered away.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

I also disagree with Paul. His commentary sounds like that of a liberal who hates business. Privacy should remain paramount. Perhaps Paul would not mind having GPS trackers on his body and that of his family so everyone can track them 24/7.

posted by Ron Lee on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

To Stephen and others concerned about corporate execs using company airplanes for junkets: As one who has been on a few of those junket flights, I can attest to the fact that a very high percentage of them are paid for out of sales budgets and the occupants of the seats are customers.

Case in point: last year on a racing weekend (my city has a NASCAR track) there were two G4s at my airport with blocked tail numbers. I happen to know people at both companies that owned the airplanes. In both cases there were a few execs on board but mostly customers. At one company, salesmen living less than four hours away were required to drive to the event to meet their customers. At the other com-any, it was three hours. Both airplanes are kitted out for maximum occupancy so 12 or so customers made the trip in each.

Are corporate aircraft privileges abused? Sure. But sometimes the presumed abuse is not what it appears.

posted by Sean O'toole on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

All I see above is class warfare. As a small business person, I own and operate a single engine aircraft for business purposes. I am a one-man band. I consider my itinerary to be both personal and private. I do not fly customers or clients. I do not quail hunt. I am not a millionaire. What I am is someone deeply offended by the easy surrender of liberty that so many profess. Then again, I suspect most of those cheering the BARR repeal are actually cheering the curtailed privacy of others.

Let me give warning: this sort of intrusion on privacy is but one more step on the path toward fascism: government will allow "freedom" but that "freedom" will be channeled and capped by the coercive force of an increasing tyrannical government. This show is coming to YOUR home...and by the time some law or regulation finally get's your attention due to YOUR perception of overwhelming intrusion, it'll be way too late.

To the specific issues related to the BARR repeal, I have one suggestion: the identity of everyone logging on to the tracks made by my tail number should be TRANSPARENT to me: name, address, phone number, social security number and legitimate purpose for logging on. The only exceptions would be those that I personally authorize in advance...and can unauthorize at my discretion. Transparency, if that's the issue, should go both ways.

posted by Grant Ellis on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, you make the argument that the gov't should not be in the business of shielding people from scrutiny. Turn the argument around - why should the gov't be in the business of publishing the movements of private parties at all? Sunshine laws rightly apply to public gov't entities and users, but as long as a citizen's activities are lawful, there seems to me no reason to assume they should be made public and saved forever.

posted by Jon Carlson on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, normally I agree with you, but you screwed the logical pooch on this one. For all the "government transparency" you use as a justification, the only taxpayer-funded element is the ATC system itself (which in many cases we are forced to use).

For the vast majority, these are not government aircraft, government employees, or government business being conducted. It's none of your (or anyone else's) damn business where I fly my Skyhawk when I'm using it for business travel, much less just boring holes in perfectly good air. That data should never have been allowed out of the FAA's computers in the first place. Replace "FAA" in the above with "IRS" and tell us how you feel.

The dirty little secret is that not filing IFR won't keep you out of the Flight Aware display: all you have to do is contact Approach on a CAVU VFR pleasure flight. Poof! You're in the system and your idle meanderings are there for all to see from that point on.

When the entire American motoring public allows our government to make individual ground vehicular traffic data available to a private company to publish on the Internet, THEN I'll consider it fair (if Fascist) to do so for airborne traffic. But not a nanosecond before.

posted by Chip Davis on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

While you have valid points, the overarching problem with this is this Administration's continual assault on the freedoms guaranteed to us by our Constitution and Declaration. It is a further naked attempt by this Progressive liberal, socialist regime that wants to "fundamentally change" this nation, into a socialistic, big-brother monster. This is just one more step onto the slippery slope of Marxism.

posted by Jonathan Oaks on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. Getting worked up over corporate aircraft is one thing, but this intrusive Big Brother flight tracking system affects small private plane owners too. Where, when, and how I travel is my own business and no one else's. Period.

And if you disagree, then kindly reply with a post that lists every place you have driven your car in the last 90 days, along with the route you took and how fast you drove. After all, your license plate is publicly viewable and our highways are all government funded. Same difference.

You can't have it both ways, though ol' Ray apparently thinks so. And this fool even has the affrontry to suugest that ending the BARR promotes "transparency in government". Hey Ray - Obama was talking about government operations, not private citizens. And I note that Congress has, not surprisingly, exempted itselve from unblocking.

posted by Michele Davis on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

1984

posted by Mark Higbee on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Absurd.

Simply absurd.

I just completed a 1,400+ mile round (personal) trip in my POV. Over 90% of that trip utilized the Interstate Highway system. Unfortunately, using Paul's logic (and others like him), I should have been tracked.

SHALL WE NOT BE SECURE IN OUR PERSONS, HOUSES, PAPERS, AND EFFECTS? Can Paul (and his ilk) not identify where those words are spoken?

And just how do stockholders come in to play in all this? Stockholders simply ask the board to release flight information to......stockholders. If your business will not release data to its constituencies, simply remove your interest, not my and others Constitutional rights. If upon finding that your business makes trips to Aspen...and you don't like it......remove your interest! If I have no interest in company A, I have no right to their comings and goings.

This is not a sad day for aviation in America. It's a just another in a long list of sad days for Americans.

posted by Eddie Robbins on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

You're right, Eddie. You have convinced me. I'm going to stop paying the portion of my taxes that I calculate goes to subsidize corporate flight departments and their large tax write-offs. That'll teach 'em! :-)

For the record, I'm not really anti-BARR. I do think that some of the arguments, on both sides, are a little over the top. When I was flying (I'm not, anymore, because $65/hr just for fuel for my Bonanza was getting unaffordable) I had way better things to worry about than whether somebody could see my flight on Flightaware. But, I can see why others might object, and I respect their views. I do think Congress has a few more important things to do than spend its time on this.

As for "Paul and his ilk", all I can say is, you sound to me like you're getting uncomfortably close to getting personal about this. I'm really hoping you won't do that and that we (all of us in this discussion) can continue to disagree about this without being disagreeable.

posted by Eric Poole on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Hey Eric, what's your tail number?

posted by Grant Ellis on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

It was N122X, 1960 M-35 Bonanza. Owned the plane for 12 years and 1000+ hours, sold it two years ago, haven't flown since. And no, I personally didn't care if anyone saw my flights on Flightaware. But I do respect your objection to it.

posted by Eric Poole on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

" This whole argument is moot. In the near future, with ADS-B, every airplane is broadcasting its N number and a network of amateur ADS-B snoopers will be able to track any airplane in real time."

You fail to note the distinction between the Governments facilitation of monitoring and the simple right to monitor airwaves (yes, airwaves, not airways).

In my experience, there are only two limits placed on RF monitoring. One, is cell phone transmission (not even in home cordless handhelds are covered). Two, some states forbid the monitoring of police radar guns in certain conditions. All other RF transmissions are legal to monitor. Deciphering cryptic RF is another story.

posted by Eddie Robbins on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

My point, which you helped make, is that it's pretty easy to be cavalier about this subject when you're not exposed to the consequences. You're of course welcome to your opinion....but I would bet others here would be far less willing to publish their tail numbers to anyone that would ask. Sure, tail numbers can be found from the registry....and really that's another invasion that could be considered somewhat over the top. Exactly what is the point of making public everything but owner's social security numbers? Are motor vehicle license plate registrations available for search? Should they be?

I continue to be amazed at the number of Americans that REFUSE to see the erosion of simple liberties as problematic. Eventually they will.

posted by Grant Ellis on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, with all due respect, I’m surprised that you and other aviation journalists keep falling into this trap. The trap is that you are advancing a solution as a defense against a bogus (straw man) argument. The straw man is the “fat cat image”, which is a canard put forth by voices that seek to vilify legitimate, successful people (usually defined as anyone that makes more money than they do!). By arguing for a solution to mitigate this “image” all you’re doing is to further legitimize it! HELLO? And don’t give me that “perception is reality” nonsense…a lie is a lie, and the only way a lie becomes a truth is when it is accepted (often and ironically, by people pandering to the liars). Instead of rolling over so easily perhaps you and your colleagues should combat these bogus arguments with, oh I don’t know, how about actual FACTS! Continued….

posted by William McClain on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Sorry Paul, more for you….In your article you say…“But I'd argue that there are two good countervailing reasons: One is just the principle of sunshine in government operations in the first place…” Ok, if you want to shine light on government operations like the FAA I’m with you 100%. But we’re not talking about the activities of government…we’re talking about the personal and private information of the citizens for which the government provides services. This is a very important distinction. But to lump them together, as you have appeared to do, would mean that, for example, since the IRS is a government operation then the “principals of sunshine” would dictate full disclosure of the information of private citizens that it collects. Absurd you say? Well, it is the exact same principal and only tortured reasoning permits it to work both ways!

posted by William McClain on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

I think Paul is dead on. Executives of publicly traded companies shouldn't be able to hide junkets. If an individual is worried about a local burglar tracking his/her travel habits, then put the aircraft in an LLC.

posted by Marion Seckinger on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

In the southern part of Florida early in February 2007 the traffic density of business jets was such that you could not "get a hand in beween them".It just so happened that this was the same time the Super Bowl was played in Miami. Could this have been a coincidence? Whatever--I am sure the various "Flight Departments" made the right "Adjustments in Company Finacial Data Bases" to allow for possible private use of business related assets--both related to the Stockholders as well as the IRS. The problem is that it is impossible with present lack of information for neither the Stockholders nor IRS to "monitor and audit" the appropriate financial adjustments. Note, I am note making an argument for the "upgrading the efficiency of IRS"--only for a "fair distribution" of common expenses within general aviation which is presently not the case--contributing greatly to the steady decline of individuals choosing a career in aviation--this is not "Warefare" just observation of facts.(I consider to blame the instructors for the decline is mainly a "deflection" for various reasons) Hence, an official record of where these business flyers are going would be helpful and supportive in the valid Stockholder/IRS question "WHY"? Hopefully, this would motivate the data base clerks in the various Flight Departments to prioritize their personal exposure over--granted I am sure "not formally published wishes" of comapany executives.

posted by Helge Skreppen on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Hello Paul, wgat is it any of YOUR business where I fly too ? ? ? ? ? NON WHAT SO EVER !!!!! Would you get a KICK out of tracking where I drive to every day ? ? ? ? Also NON OF YOUR BUSINESS / & it a BAD MOVE on YOUR part to support BARR !!! SHAME ON YOU !!!!! **********************************************************

posted by Lance van Merlin on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, I hope this was done to promote discussion, I've never disagreed with you before in a lot of years of reading, even vacuuming water vapor out of the crankcase was a search for truth. Of course there are financial abuses, but they are everywhere, private or taxpayer funds. But the big point here is security of not only the junket people, but the entire public. Consider some fringe group, tree huggers, animal rights activists, Jihadists or just plain kooks like the shooter in Tucson recently. All one must do is decide to take their 30-06 out to the approach end of the runway and take pot shots at their targeted supposed enemy. All those aboard, cheaters or not, have their lives put at risk. So do people on the ground, off of that airfield as well as on. Just think about a disabled plane hitting the passenger terminal at LAX or JFK? Even "just" hitting my hangar or yours doesn't sound pleasant. There may be some rewards for some in not blocking numbers, but the risk of even one incident like I mentioned above vastly outweighs and potential benefit.

posted by Lindley Manning on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Holy smokes! Some serious hyperventilating going on here.

How many here have actually signed up with BARR to block their flight information from being published? I would bet none.

Privacy? What about living your entire life recorded on video cameras everywhere? I wonder how many of you screaming here gladly pull out your "rewards" cards every time you are in a store or gas station?

What about cell phones? Even without GPS your movements are tracked by cell towers. And all of this collecting of personal, private information is done by for-profit companies who use knowledge of your every move to extract even more money out of your wallet.

The national air space system is owned by the taxpayers. Companies that use this system and then want to hide their use of company jets are working the system. They are getting taxpayer dollars for that flight to Aspen or the Super bowl.

For private airplane owners and small businesses I would rather they be exempt, but how are you going to divide that? Maybe along piston-jet classification? But then you have the legal question of selective rules.

In any case, it should not matter to privacy because it is the N-number only that is being revealed, not the identity of the pilot or owner or anyone else on the plane. And since none of you screamers are blocking your flight info now, what's the big deal?

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

A couple of issues here:

1. If you think it is your right to know because of tax breaks, that is an IRS question. 2. My tax dollars also pay for the roads I drive on, but (except for a few skid marks) they don't track where I go.

Just what numbers will be blocked first? How about legislators, governors, etc..."legitimate security risk, right?"

posted by Mike Hand on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

William McClain, if you think that the "fat cat" image is a canard then you should look at the wealth distribution statistics.

If you are "successful" and earn more than 90 percent of the population, guess what, you are paying about 50 percent more taxes than the much wealthier 1 percent at the top.

Not only that, but your share of the wealth pie is also shrinking, in relation to those super wealthy plutocrats. Not as much as middle income earners of course, whose real incomes and wealth are actually decreasing.

Glad you are so generous that you don't mind opening your wallet and giving some more love to the mandarins riding around in those GV's and Global Expresses.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

I'm amazed at the class warfare going on here. Nobody considers themselves rich - they're just working class stiffs. Even when they're millionaires. I have come to realized that I am filthy rich! I make a little under $30k/year flight instructing. There are literally billions of people in the world who would not have to think for a second for the chance to bring they're families to the US and have what I have. Easy access to food, fuel (heating, driving, cooking, and flying), good drinking water, etc. I have been fortunate to have worked with and for multi-millionaires and some of them have needed security. To keep their movements quiet from former wives, disgruntled employees, stalkers, etc - to say nothing of the people who think they make or have too much money and begrudge them the work they did to get where they are. I really enjoy working at small airports and smelling the clover as I touchdown in a taildragger. The folks in the Mustangs, Conquests, King Airs, etc - just don't have the time to do that. They made their choice and I made mine. If they need to have their N number blocked, they should be able to be blocked. I don't know enough about BARR to be able to say if it is being overly abused (I don't know of any government system that is not being abused by somebody, somewhere, somehow - that's why I say overly). I do know that a system like this needs to exist.

posted by Dave Stock on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

@ Gordon - I'm guessing you're not a pilot...otherwise you would know that with the tail number anyone can go onto the registry file and get all of your registry information. Maybe not such a big deal for LLC's....but for me, my home address is listed along with other particulars.

posted by Grant Ellis on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

It may come as a huge surprise to some of you chest beaters about a lot of biz traffic to sporting events and such however have you heard of entertaining customers? It's a time honored tradition. Additionally I would like to say that if someone is going to have a biz conference in Orlando in February or one in Chicago where would you rather go? Whoever said that if you think you should track these planes around then we should be tracking cars that are used for business purposes also is right on. Personally I think there is way to much tracking of everything by our government nowadays. If shareholders want to find out what their company plane is doing they can find it out. What the company is doing with their aircraft is a little business to anyone else. The IRS has their nose so far up our butts about personal use of aircraft in company names that is near impossible to cheat today. All you sunshine people are mostly just nosy and envious if you ask me.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

"sounds like that of a liberal who hates business."

Gee, what does a liberal "sound" like? Perhaps you could hum a few bars for me. Or is that the tune people play when they're unable to debate an idea on it merit, but have to fall back on political labels instead? Beats me.

I have spent a lifetime in journalism trying to pry information out of the government (and some companies) that they don't want me or the public to know. This is the same thing. It's available data on an FAA, publically accessible datastream about people who are availing themselves of a national resource--the NAS and the FAA's oversight of it. It should be fair game for public view. LiveATC monitors the airwaves and publishes that feed. Should be suppressed too?

You know, as an aviation journalist, I extoll the virtues of aircraft as business tools. But I'm still a journalist so it's fair to ask...show me some examples and don't hide stuff from me. It makes me naturally suspicious. I not willing to be an unconditional apologist. No one should be.

And if you want to follow me around as a travel, be my quest. You'd be bored to death.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

@ Paul - I love to be bored...I'm an engineer. Shoot us your tail number. Maybe I'll meet you at an airport somewhere and you can buy me a drink while we debate the merits. How's that! :)

posted by Grant Ellis on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Look let'snot confuse things. the guys in the Conquests and Mustangs are going on their own dime. No problem. Nobody begrudges them anything.

But they aren't pulling down half a billion pay packages and then using the company jet for pleasure trips.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Grant I don't live in the US, nor own an airplane so I don't know what info is available from government. If you can look up personal info by typing in someone's N-number then that is a different story. it has nothing to do with the issue of being able to hide your airplane movements in the ATC system.

I'm an engineer too, and have never been bored. I have flown professionally for many years, including many hours in flight test for a major airframer.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Stuart, please get real. Just about any junket can be turned into a "business trip" on the most flimsy pretense.

Please. I wasn't born yesterday. Been on a few junkets myself. Love them. the corporate bigwigs sure do know how to live it up, no question. But at some point ethics and fairness have to enter the equation.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, Just because you people in the world of journalism think you have a right to know everything about everyone don't make it so. Both journalists and the government have gotten too intrusive nowadays in the view of this old curmudgeon.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Gordon, please be polite. I have been in business for forty some years and I have accomplished most of the really important things at some place other than the office. If it happened to be in a aircraft or on the golf course that was still business.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Didn't mean to sound patronizing, Stuart. I agree with you. Business can be done at places usually thought of as a pleasure destination, no question.

Problem is, there is a lot of abuse of that principle.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

One man's abuse is another man's rewards....they might even be perks. I have tried avoiding being judgmental about characterizing what is which or maybe they will come take my country club membership away.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Stuart, do these guys need any more perks? Look at the BP guy. How many hundreds of millions was his severance package? Good job, he deserved it.

How much did it cost us, in real taxpayer dollars. The greed and arrogance has just gotten too big to ignore anymore.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

I absolutely agree with Paul on this one. I think company stockholders have every right to see where the big cheeses are going in their planes...but then I'm a fairly rare bird, so to speak, an unapologetic liberal retired corporate pilot. I kept my logbooks using blue ink for junket trips and black for legit business trips. I think I only bought 2 new black pens in 38 years.

posted by Karl Schneider on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, Previous comment goes to prove you are on the wrong side if a unapologetic liberal agrees with you. Being in the industry and as a stockholder of a couple of public companies I have never had much trouble finding out where their company planes were going.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

"You're right, Eddie. You have convinced me. I'm going to stop paying the portion of my taxes that I calculate goes to subsidize corporate flight departments and their large tax write-offs."

Why only stop paying the portion that goes to flight departments? Why not business that right off automobile transportation (after all they use Federally funded roads systems)?

As a matter of fact, did you take any tax detections? Mortgage deductions? Dependent deductions? Do tax write-offs/deductions now negate fundamental rights?

Why did you not post your license plate number? Your driver's license ID? Vehicle VIN? After all, you do drive on taxpayer funded roads don't you?

"As for "Paul and his ilk", all I can say is, you sound to me like you're getting uncomfortably close to getting personal about this."

You bet it's personal. And until folks scream to the top of their lungs "enough is enough" we will continue to see the erosion of personal freedoms. This is a perfect example. A squawk and N-number were assigned for safety/administration reasons were they not? (It wouldn't do to have more than a few folks in the system with the same squawk and callsighn). But of course, let's take it just a little step further, let's post your name and address publicly. Well now that your accustom to your name and address being available, and of course you still have nothing to hide, let's go ahead and post your comings and goings publicly. Where does it stop? Does it stop?

posted by Eddie Robbins on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Wow, Paul. You are very off base on this call. I'm surprised you did not carry the logic to its end.

There are many occasions where our lives or the businesses we work for intersect with a government agency, and usually those agencies do not publically release the transaction. This is generally thought to be a good thing.

Sometimes a comparable helps to show the logic in an argument. For example, I would assert that many of your AvWeb members have had personally or within their family a medical procedure in which a government agency played a part -- whether through medicare, the veteran's administration, etc. Should these procedures be subject to FOIA requests? Of course not; our medical records are private.

Now about the need for aviation secrecy: I work for a privately owned, on-demand charter company. Why should our competitors or our clients' competitors be privvy to where our clients are sending their people or their cargo? One of our clients is the US Government, and the cargo is remains. What public interest is served knowing where those flights are going -- outside of the families directly involved? So perhaps you might understand as I write this on Memorial Day why I find your normally insightful logic has become in this case idiotic.

posted by Timothy Holloway on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

I guess it's clear now that the politicians have managed to bifurcate Americans into the perceived rich...and the self-identified "little guy".

For all the screeching about upholding shareholder interests, in the end that's not the objective. The objective, out of pure unadulterated prejudice, is to punish the successful because, after all, they're "screwing everyone". There must be some joy in that because certainly nothing comes of it. Nothing.

In my view, too many American's are too far removed from the mechanics of profitability and job creation. Somehow they fail to understand the competition, entrepreneurship, drive and creativity necessary for survival much less success. Somehow, the rich STOLE all their money from us!

Demonizing "the rich", tarring them all with the same fat, sloppy brush is simple proof of our bifurcation. You can't love an every-other-Friday payday and hate profit....but then so many do. We're screwed.

posted by Grant Ellis on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

"Executives of publicly traded companies shouldn't be able to hide junkets. If an individual is worried about a local burglar tracking his/her travel habits, then put the aircraft in an LLC."

If it's a publicly traded company, purchase a share and simply ask the board for travel records. If the board will not release them, sell your share. No need to get the government involved.

Why, as an individual, would someone need to put the aircraft in an LLC to keep travel information private? How about we just get or direction from I dunno, the Bill of Rights maybe?

posted by Eddie Robbins on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Most of those against tracking see it as a security concern.For others it is about "business privacy" or various "concerns of principle"---in many cases more to do with "emotions" than practical flying concerns.Those for tracking seem to want to make sure that the general tax payer/stockholder does not subsidize executive junkets.To be completely fair, it seems the "for tracking team" has the most "pulling power".This is not because I do not see the importance in issues as for example security.However, I think it can be satisfied by proper implementation of the tracking process.For example,by making the tracking information available some times after the flight has taken place or make the tracking available on request or only to certain organizations/individuals with certain clearance or a combination of some/all the above. There are many ways this information can be made available and still meet both the objectives of safety/business security as well as transparency. Also, with a delay of the publication of the tracking, an executive will have some time to come up with a plausible explanation to his/her partner why it was absolutely necessary for his/her "secretary" to accompany the executive. Being a "liberal thinker" I am more than willing to file this under "business privacy" and willing to accept almost any intelligent explanation for "peaceful domestic purposes"--that is as long as my tax money does not pay for it.

posted by Helge Skreppen on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Most of those against tracking see it as a security concern.For others it is about "business privacy" or various "concerns of principle"---in many cases more to do with "emotions" than practical flying concerns.Those for tracking seem to want to make sure that the general tax payer/stockholder does not subsidize executive junkets.To be completely fair, it seems the "for tracking team" has the most "pulling power".This is not because I do not see the importance in issues as for example security.However, I think it can be satisfied by proper implementation of the tracking process.For example,by making the tracking information available some times after the flight has taken place or make the tracking available on request or only to certain organizations/individuals with certain clearance or a combination of some/all the above. There are many ways this information can be made available and still meet both the objectives of safety/business security as well as transparency. Also, with a delay of the publication of the tracking, an executive will have some time to come up with a plausible explanation to his/her partner why it was absolutely necessary for his/her "secretary" to accompany the executive. Being a "liberal thinker" I am more than willing to file this under "business privacy" and willing to accept almost any intelligent explanation for "peaceful domestic purposes"--that is as long as my tax money does not pay for it.

posted by Helge Skreppen on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

How about we start with Air Farce One being public whenever they file a flight plan? That should put us all on a equal footing.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Good for you Karl. I guess you didn't realize it is now a thought crime to say out loud that you espouse liberal principles like ethics and fairness in business.

Grant, I'm glad you think you are not getting screwed by the super wealthy plutocrats who own this country, its politicians, and most of its money. They need people like you to gulp down the "free market" pabulum they are dishing out.

Maybe you don't realize that even if you don't pay a single penny in tax, you are paying a 30 percent financial overhead on everything you buy and consume. Some might call that a Wall Street tax. But you'll never read about that in Forbes.

And again I just would like to hear from one individual here who is presently taking advantage of the BARR system to block access to his or her flight tracking data.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Yeah Grant.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Me sometimes with some aircraft.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

My employer usually blocks flight tracking.

posted by Timothy Holloway on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

I intended to block...until I discovered FlightAware would invoice something like $500 for the "service" of returning my privacy. I was outraged and remain so. Talk about rent-seeking.

By the way Gordon, it's one thing to have a choice and decide not to take it. It's clearly another to have the coercive power of the federal government remove your choices.

Along the same lines, if you don't want to buy a GM car or a tank of gas from Chevron, you're FREE to make other choices (so far)....until the government decides that everyone needs a plug-in Leaf.

Good luck with Marxist Utopia.

posted by Grant Ellis on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

The elimination of BARR is being promulgated by those that peddle class warfare and further their own political interest. If you don't play ball with the Administration then your company is a target for a media hit job.

My company is not public and my business is highly competitive. My competitors would be ecstatic to have a daily itinerary of my travels. I fly an A36 not a bizjet and I'm not flying to Tahiti or Aspen. I fly daily trips to airports with no commercial air service. I've got 200 employees and their families depending upon me.

This rule change is much bigger than going after a couple of fatcats flying G4s. I promise every pilot and plane owner the information gleaned from corporate and private entities travel will be used to hurt general aviation.

Class warfare? You haven't seen anything yet. Election year grows near.

posted by Rick Ott on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Rick, The class warriors grow ever bolder.......and sillier.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

The people that keep carping about “their tax dollars paying for junkets” are making my head hurt! You are obviously not business people, so please note the following information. The U.S. tax code has for decades allowed tax deductions for business-related travel and entertainment expenses. When business people file their tax returns they are subject to stiff monetary penalties and interest if they attempt to claim a business deduction for a non-business activity. Criminal charges may even be filed in extreme cases or fraud. Sooooo, until or unless the IRS rules are changed this is the law of the land!! Get it? If you don’t like this law you can petition your congressional representatives to change it (BTW, this is how things actually work in a democratic republic). But I frankly don’t understand the reasoning of folks that advocate the suspension of privacy rights for people who are engaging in legal activity, just because you personally disapprove of the activity. Perhaps someone can explain this to me…

posted by William McClain on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

It is not explainable in a logical way. There will however probably be some tortured logic of the evil rich guys soon to follow.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

“William McClain, if you think that the "fat cat" image is a canard then you should look at the wealth distribution statistics. If you are "successful" and earn more than 90 percent of the population, guess what, you are paying about 50 percent more taxes than the much wealthier 1 percent at the top.” With all due respect Gordon, I don’t think you understand how the U.S. tax code works. The tax rate is based on the nature of the income AND the marginal bracket you’re in. For example, currently the maximum federal income tax rate for “earned income” is 35%, and for “long term capital gains” it’s 15%. If I earned more than 90% of the population I would be in the top brackets noted above, and therefore would pay taxes based on those rates. Someone in the top 1% is in the same top brackets, and therefore pays the same rates. Certainly not 50% less.

posted by William McClain on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Anyone who uses the word plutocrats does not understand a lot of things.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

I hate to check the box about receiving notices about this, however this is so wrong in it's thinking that I got to stay informed........

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Stuart, be careful what you wish for... hope you have a big mailbox... :-\

posted by Eric Poole on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Yeah I know.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 30, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, you’re missing the bigger issue. It isn't tracking N numbers, it's that the Foot-Tall sign on our flying billboards advertise your name and address for any sleezeball with an iPhone to access. If you were ever involved in an airplane accident, it would be mere minutes before a reporter knocks on your door and sticks a microphone in your spouse’s face for a sound bite and video for the 6:00 news. That would be followed by weeks of solicitations from lawyers offering to “help”.

Why is using an license plate number to access someone’s name and address is a crime for anyone except the government or law enforcement yet the biggest writing on the FAA homepage says "N-NUMBER INQUIRY"?

Even the sleazy reality TV industry "pixilates" license plates even though it's illegal to access DMV records.

Accessing DMV records for personal reasons = Felony Accessing FAA records for personal reasons = "right granted under the constitution”(?) Why is there a difference?

The Jeanie may already be out of the bottle on this one so I agree with Grant Ellis; only provide the information if the requester's information is provided to the requested. Transparency should be two way. Don't you have just as much right to know who's looking into your travels as the person who's looking?

posted by Kris Larson on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

With all due respect William, if you do not know that the super-rich pay the least amount of tax then there is nothing left for me to day. This issue has been publicized extensively.

The tax code is a piece of paper. Like famed Tigers manager Sparky Anderson used to say, the game ain't played on paper. When you have a billion dollars, you have a lot more (legal) options for evading taxes than when you have only a million dollars.

Here area couple of links. Warren Buffet has complained publicly that he pays a tax rate half of what his $60,000 a year secretary pays.

Due to public demand the IRS is now publishing figures on how much tax the 400 wealthiest pay. Note that their total income, as a percentage of the total personal income pie doubled in just 8 years (between 1992 and 2000). Since then it has shot up much more quickly. While their share of taxes paid has not kept up. Has your income doubled in 8 years?

Really when even some of the super rich themselves are speaking out that the system is not fair, then it is astounding to me that ordinary people are standing up to defend this system of gouging. I give up.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Looks like it would not let me post links.

The IRS stats are here: irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/00in400h.pdf

The Buffet story is here: timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

This is not just about business jets. The discussion on tax deductabiliy just distracts from the main issue, which is privacy.

I fly a Cessna 150, obviously not a huge tax deduction ;-) I prefer not to get flight following or fly IFR, but there are times I choose to fly in the system.

I see no reason that anyone other than ATC should have any reason to know where or when I am flying my airplane.

posted by june smith on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Once again, folks: this is not about airplanes ... this is about an invasive government seeking to expand its authority to monitor ordinary law abiding citizens.

If our government truly is interested in "public safety", then tell me: what da heck is going on with the refusal to secure the southwest border, eh? What's with the Mexican drug cartels gaining more and more strength on U.S. territory?

Trust me when I say BARR is nothing but a progressivist 'prick' against Liberty and Freedom ... a "Joe the Plumber" attempt to "spread the wealth" first and foremost by spreading the misery.

If any of you out there don't view Liberty as precious, then I guess you're also for installing some jack-booted thug at the entrance of even the smallest grass field, demanding "papers, please ...".

Aviation should be at the leading edge of more than just telling war stories and holding court in our local hangar. Much is at stake in this next election.

posted by Phil Derosier on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Tax Deduction.

Remember, each trip that any company makes with their biz jet is fully deductible as a "legitimate business expense". Yes, we taxpayers who make the trip possible should be able to see where the trips go, and should see the WASTE of our money on trips to ski resorts, carribean getaways, etc.

My 2 cents

posted by Ed Winne on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Ed:

Look up the word "Dacha", and see if you can tell me that the progressivist, governing elite don't do the same.

Until business and government leaders can get to the point where all business is conducted via internet conferencing, I don't expect much change to occur in the "perks" arena.

posted by Phil Derosier on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

One Acronym: ADS-B! Once those units are required, it will be easy to track flights. The receivers are available commercially and the data is shared on websites like planefinder.net .

Even with Mode S, traffic is trackable to area (transponder received by receiver A at location X and then receiver B at location Y.

Disclaimer: I have one of the receivers and share "my" data on planefinder. I don't get paid for it.

posted by leave blank on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Biz jets will always have the "fat cat" image regardless of BARR, flight track information, etc. You don't fly on these jets unless a lot of money is involved. That image will never change. The airline service in this country is quite vast, capable of taking you from city A to any city B. But these fat cats elect for biz jets. Enough said.

posted by William Wang on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Mr. Wang. Unless you want to spend many extra days traveling on not being face to face with customers and suppliers you do not just use the airlines. Many of our small towns where many large companies have decided to locate have a local airport. The nearest place with commercial service is often one hundred or more miles away. Additionally the airline schedule rarely makes for good door to door service. Charter or having the convenience of your own plane you can do much much more with less people and they cost a heck of a lot more than a practical aircraft.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

I realize that you enjoy stirring things up, but there is nothing about putting this information out in the open that promotes aviation. It takes very little effort to see where having this information public would be a detriment to businesses and business aviation. It should be optional for anyone to block this information.

posted by Pegasus Aero on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

I for one have flown for 44 years. I have watched the erosion of one of our greatest freedoms, the right to fly unimpeded around our country. I do a lot of International flying and I can speak with some authority to the fact that we are beginning to become more like the third world countries in our procedures and regulations...the idea of not allowing aircraft to move about privately, is just anohter knife in the chest of our freedom and privacy. NO ONE has the right to know the business of others if the "others" don't want them to know, especially given the very real issues of Privacy, Security, and the basic Freedom to move as we please. A good example of this is that the countries "south" of us, have a very active "business" of hostage taking. I have flown there with very high level passengers, the whole concept of the flight was "confidentiality" in order to not be a target for this "southern business acitivity" known as "hostage taking". Those who do not respect the right of privacy here...shame on you. At some point, we need to review the concepts of the Bill of Rights and our Constitution.

posted by Blaine Banks on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Geez! Where the heck were all these apologists for privacy when the eAPIS NPRM was floated a couple of years ago that resulted in our having to ask permision of the government (DHS/Customs & Border Protection) to LEAVE the US in our own private vehicle, while providing all sorts of arcane info about ourselves (grand mother's dententist's name etc) as well as prospective movements for the following 24 hours before embarking. Those quick to label the problem in left/right/liberal/conservative terms should take note that this happened in the era of the previous administration.

Personally, I don't care if my N-number is shown on flight aware. After the flight I look to see how good my hand-flying on course has been. There is some protection of privacy in sheer numbers, but there is no getting away from the fact that there really is little expectation of privacy today. We are assaulted on many fronts. Fortunately there are 300 million other people whose lack of privacy makes the probability pretty low that anyone is going to violate mine. I do turn off clandestine GPS/tracking engines that are sneakily built into consumer electronics though.

posted by David MacRae on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

David: You've never heard of a progressivist Republican? Like John McCain?

posted by Phil Derosier on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

I do believe that the right to privacy is pretty fundamental. Will we soon be wearing tracking bracelets like criminals or carrying ID cards, like subjects of the third reich did? IRS must love this idea! So will stalkers, corporate spies and poparazzi. David, I think that we still expect privacy, but the system often lets us down...the crooks are more clever than the gatekeepers. There is no safety in numbers...now when somebody rips off a major retailor or someone leaves his laptop in the mens room, millions of identities are stolen at the same time!

posted by Steve Tobias on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Where is Paul? Throw a live hand grenade out there and then leave the scene.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

@ Steve:

Some aspects of privacy are fundamental, like medical records that are protected by law. Others are only in the category of "would be nice to have", like buying-habit info that is used to direct focused but annoying advertising at us.

I'm in the camp that would prefer greater privacy (I refuse to use "expletive deleted" Face Book or Twitter), but also I am a realist about where modern information systems and the connected gadgets that feed them have left us. We pay a price for convenience. The alternative is to simply try and live "off the grid".

The excuses for monitoring flights, i.e., those that include the fact that we are using publicly funded ATC systems, and therefore are not entitled to any measure of privacy are pretty lame, I agree.

As for monitoring braclets, we have those. They are already ubiquitous and called GPS-enabled cell-phones. ID cards? Driver's licenses with photo ID, and in some cases chips. Heck, credit and debit cards, and passports all have chips that announce who we are to lurking criminal elements lying in wait for us to pass by.

posted by David MacRae on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Paul is probably perusing the WSJ watch list.

This taken directly from WSJ data mining page Paul mentioned in his blog post:

“Editor's note: Usage of this tool is temporarily limited to viewing searches previously created by WSJ editors.”

Hummm, “temporarily limited to viewing searches previously created by WSJ”. Well how ‘bout that; the WSJ has done the work for you. The WSJ has deemed THESE are the flights you are looking for. How nice of them hold our hand and point the only possible people/organizations YOU need to be concerned with.

What’s that? No mentioned of “not for profit” organizations on that list? No DNC/RNC? No Green peace? No Serra Club? Ahhh, but there’s good ole John T. and Oprah. Better keep an eye on those guys.

posted by Eddie Robbins on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

One point that I didn't see anyone raise yet is how this program is ACUALLY used. I am an instrument rated pilot and I was not even aware, until I read this article, that I COULD have my n-number blocked. I think that if you could find out what n-numbers are in practice blocked, you would find that it is not individuals and small businesses that are blocking info but large multi-national corporations. As I see it, this program is designed to benefit the privileged few not to ensure personal privacy. As such I would advocate two options:

1. End BARR entirely.

2. Block ALL flight plan information from being publicly released equally, and free of charge.

I have not entirely decided which I favor, but I believe that it is fundamental to the ideals that this country CLAIMS to hold dear that whatever policy is adopted should be applied equally.

posted by Jakob Robinson on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

As a practical matter many people use flight aware or something similar to keep track of flights (airline and otherwise) to figure out when to meet people or schedule meetings. Many want to see how a flight is progressing for a practical reason, this is really a privacy issue, nothing more and nothing less.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Gordon, Gordon, Gordon…what are we going to do with you! Sorry, but I don’t share your anti-success, anti-profit perspective, and I don’t begrudge people making a lot of money when they play by the rules. You seem to be among the crowd that doesn’t like the rules…you’re entitled!

The reason Buffet pays tax at a lower rate than his secretary is that most of his taxable income is capital gains. As stated in my previous post, the tax rate for cap gains is lower than that for earned income. Hate to break this to you and your ilk, but this is true for just about all of the developed world. In fact, many countries don’t tax capital gains at all! There’s a reason for this…do some research!

Buffet has made public statements that tax rates should be higher. He’s entitled to his opinion. It is notable that he has the option to pay more tax than what’s required based on the current rates, but according to reports has not done so. Hmmm, he says one thing and does another. Actually sounds just about like most progressives…really confused!

posted by William McClain on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Look McClain, I don't appreciate being referred to as "ilk." I don't think anyone does and I have been entirely civil with everyone here and that is what I expect in return.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Read it again, Mr. Arnaut - you were not being referred to as ilk; those of your kind were.

posted by Rush Strong on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, where are you? The classroom is running amok!

posted by Phil Derosier on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Stuart, please enlighten me on how things "work."

It was not that long ago that a senior captain took home only a bit less than the airline chief executive. Today the chief is pulling down 100 times as much, sometimes 1000 times as much. Where is the equilibrium here? Where is the common sense?

It was not that long ago that thousands of middle class folks would go and buy a brand new airplane from their Cessna or Piper store because it cost about what two or three new family cars cost. it was within reach.

Today a C172 costs $300,000, more than the cost of 10 new cars. In the 1970s my dad bought a brand new Skywagon on floats, on a pharmacists's salary. He flew himself and his family in that airplane for more than 20 years and 5,000 hours, a lot of it to the family cottage in Quebec.

His kids, myself included, have no chance to buy a new floatplane. I am lucky in that I get to fly professionally, but I would still like to have my own plane.

Continued...

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

What happened? You guys are yapping here about success and that I am against success. Who is succeeding when piston airplane sales have gone from tens of thousands to a few dozen a year?

You want to know who is succeeding? The parasite class on Wall Street and Big Business. Sales of G550s and Global Expresses have never been better, growing every year.

You want to know why? It was not so long ago that the financial sector was barely 10 percent of GNP. Today it is 35 percent. do you even realize that finance is an extractive activity, like taxes? It does not produce anything but charges the rest of the economy rent for borrowing money.

The finance sector is bigger than the government sector. So you are paying more taxes to Wall street than to Washington. Did you know that?

Continued...

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

We are supposedly living in a democracy and that's what has everyone stirred up. Well when did they ask you and me that the nation's finances could sucked up by a casino finance sector that is leading us to ruin and pauperdom?

When did they ask us for permission to dismantle the financial regulations that have been in place since the Great Depression?

When did they ask us if they could funnel several trillion dollars to underwater banks under Quantitative Easing and QE2? Or the other trillions in bailouts?

What's going to happen when humpty dumpty can't be put back together again? That day is not far off. This is not about success or some nonsense about class war but our economic survival.

These abuses have to be reined in. The robber barons have to know that they can't thumb their noses at the people any more.

WE PAY FOR THOSE PLEASURE TRIPS THROUGH TAX DEDUCTIONS. WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW!

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

I cannot for the life of me explain to you why CEO's of big companies are paid what they are, nor do I know why professional athletes are paid what they are. I suppose it's because someone ask for it and someone said yes. I find that blameless.

As far as why airplanes cost so much you need go no further than all the people standing in line to sue the manufacturers and the lawyers in our legislatures eager to let them. Add that to the ridiculous rules to certify anything to do with aircraft and get in the supply chain and you have it.

What has that got to do with whether you or some snoopy news man or some terrorist should be able to see where a aircraft is going?

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

So that's how things work? Blameless? I guess we are living in Wonderland now?

Do you not agree that a finance sector sucking 35 percent of GNP is a bit much? Taxes have grown too but the finance overhead is just out of all proportion.

When you buy a new car, fully half of its retail price is built in finance overhead in making that car. Plus you have to finance your purchase and pay even more to the giant vacuum known as the finance sector.

As for the cost of new piston planes? Well that is easy and the explanation is there for all to see. Why should Cessna bother with making affordable pistons when bizjets now make up more than 96 percent of its sales revenue? Multimillion dollar planes are way more profitable. Wall Street barons and corporate mandarins don't mind cutting big checks on the taxpayers dime.

Look at the numbers of airplane production year by year in the last 30 years. As bizjets sales have rocketed skyward, piston sales have plunged.

And it's not just CEOs but the entire Wall Street parasite class that is sucking the lifeblood out of the economy.

Continued...

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Go ask the veteran coming home without legs why has to buy his own crutches. Not enough money to go around, son.

But there is more than enough to go around for even mid-level Wall Street mini-barons who get bonuses that are in the eight figure range?

I am not against rewarding success but Wall Street has become a complete scam. They own the politicians through campaign contributions and this is what has resulted in the huge rise of the finance sector.

It has to stop or we will join the third world, where this is the way things actually "work."

posted by Gordon Arnaut on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Apparently Paul and the staff are taking the day off.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

I think the term is "tactical retreat".

posted by Rush Strong on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

If your issue is with corporate tax breaks, see the IRS.

If your issue is rich people using their aircraft for personal purposes, see the owner of the aircraft.

If your issue is privacy, let's eliminate ALL security blocking, including (especially including) government aircraft.

Air Traffic Control should be a service, not an inquisition.

posted by Mike Hand on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Nicely put Mike.

posted by Stuart Baxter on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

Gordon, I do not consider the term “ilk” a pejorative. The term is a bit sarcastic I grant you, but to my mind not offensive. I certainly intended no offense to you or anyone else. You have said quite a bit here, and you obviously feel strongly about this topic. So in the interest of fairness I will simply say that “me and my ilk” respectfully disagree with you on many of your views and perspectives.

posted by William McClain on May 31, 2011[report abuse]

"I think the term is "tactical retreat"

I guess you're new around here. I give as good as I get, generally, and if you want a blog that spouts only the NBAA/AOPA party line, this isn't the place to find that. I have been traveling without broadband access, unfortunately and unable to respond.

Some of these messages are getting close to the edge, but that happens when you reduce discussions to liberal versus conservative. To me, the issue remains simply access to government data by the general public. I see no compelling public interest not to have the access and I definitely don't see a compelling reason to suppress it, hence the blog. I respect the opposite view.

As for the right to privacy during travel, there is no such right. There never has been. Freedom of movement was evidently assumed by the framers to be so fundamental as to be not worth enumerating. But freedom of movement doesn't mean the government has an obligation to prevent anyone from seeing you do such travel. Nor does it mean the government has a right or obligation to get involved in any way in tracking such movement, regardless of the conveyance. The FAA just happens to do that as part of its standard duties and it makes this data available to the public. The argument that this somehow diminishes rights is not convincing. If the FAA didn't have this data available, I wouldn't insist that it compile it. But it does have it.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

As for "snoopy" journalists, if it weren't for them and a robust First Amendment, you would know nothing, frankly, except what the government and perhaps corporations want you to know, as is the case in many countries. The fact that the snoops reveal things that you don't agree with ideologically, or that they they make mistakes or piss people off by revealing things goes with the territory. But to me, the good far outweighs the bad. As one of those snoops, I'm not about to get onboard agreeing with suppression of government data that's as benign as this is. Everyone seems to agree with privacy policies related to medical and tax records. But this is far less sensitive than that.

Regardless of which side of this issue you are on, please try to keep this civil.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Exactly what good outweighs the bad. I don't believe I've seen a clear "good" that results from making the comings and goings of private citizens public-to-all. The fact that government employees are (and will remain) exempt from the same "transparency" that applies to private citizens flies in the face of every argument made so far. If there is any group of people that should be subject to "transparency", it's government employees using government hardware to supposedly do government business. The notion that only THESE people are entitled to the inherent security related to privacy implies that THEY are somehow better than we.

Finally, I find it curious that many of those with strong opinions toward this so-called "transparency" have no dog in the hunt at all...no active pilot's license and no aircraft ownership. It's damn easy to be cavalier about the application of a law or regulation that merely restricts the privacy of someone else....and as almost always the case, the liberals among us are the last to understand that the erosion of every small liberty "for the greater good" is one more step toward tyranny. Let the mocking begin.

posted by Grant Ellis on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

I suppose one could assume that Paul has fallen for the government's framing of the debate. It uses "government openness" in an Orwellian fashion, to mean "we'll tell everyone about your private business, but conceal what the government is doing" and it justifies it on the grounds that private airplanes are used by "fat cats" - ignoring the private individuals who travel. The thing is, to be that kind you'd have to assume that Paul is profoundly naive, and Paul is not naive. You could be less kind and assume that Paul really does support this type of statist overreach, but I don't think that's consistent with his track record. What is consistent with Paul's track record and intelligence is to assume that he is trolling.

Still, it's clear that there's a need for a law prohibiting the government from publishing any reasonably personally identifying information it has gathered as a requirement of filing any tax document, using any government web site, or applying for any permit, license, or benefit. God knows we learned that lesson before. We could call it the Rebecca Schaeffer Act.

posted by Thomas Boyle on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

As for the right to privacy during travel, there is no such right.

Paul, let us first review the Bill of Rights:

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Yes, citizens have no innate right to conceal information vital to orderly governance. However, the government has no right to wanton (i.e., "not supported by oath or affirmation") interrogation.

As I've stated earlier, much is at stake in this upcoming election.

posted by Phil Derosier on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

I guess airline passenger's names should be available for search also for the same reasons???

posted by Greg Kaaz on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Grant, a search of the aircraft registry turns up no aircraft registered to a "Grant Ellis."

The airmen database returns hits for two Grant Ellises, one of which was issued his private certificate in 1947, and the other in 1948.

So with all due respect to your advanced age and more than 60 years of flying experience, I would think that, well into your 80s, you would have more pressing issues to worry about than BARR.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Not being a US resident I had no idea how much personal info is freely available on the FAA website. It is way too much

The Canadian aircraft registry, for example, gives only the owner name and no other identifying information. Airmen info is not available to the public, as it should be.

All of this info on the FAA website is far worse than publishing flight tracking, which is supposed to be anonymous. However, when you combine this with the fact that all kinds of personal info is available by N-number, then that is too much information.

What needs to be done is that the personal information needs to be protected. You should not be able to look up the aircraft registry and find personal info, nor the airmen database for that matter.

The flight tracking info, on the other hand SHOULD and MUST be available. Provided it is anonymous.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Thomas Boyle, I find your comments inappropriate.

You are aiming your comments at the person, not the issue under debate. That is called an ad hominem argument and has no place in courteous debate.

Frankly I would be insulted if someone accused me of "trolling."

posted by Gordon Arnaut on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Aviation:Business jet users are required to use the FAA system in order to fly at optimum (reasonable) altitudes. Give me the option of cruising at 43,000' without being in the FAA system and I will give you the counter that govt should not conceal their data. In reality, this is probably a bad idea for safety reasons. But until I have the option, you can't argue the data is you right. To use the well-overused car analogy, if you had to register and get clearance for every car trip you took over, say 20 miles, and the govt tracked that, would that data be reasonably expected to be available for public use (burglars, competitors, nosey neighbors, vicous ex-wives/husbands, or worse)?

Business: The company jet I fly (which is blocked) is used routinely to visit locations for prospective business. We occasionally travel without wearing our company logo for the same reason. I have known quite a few pilots who would assist their company in "snooping" by providing information from flight tracking, flight watchers, or even just friends reporting the arrival of a competitor. Without BARR, it's just a lot easier. I support my company's privacy wishes because I know they are good people who don't abuse the system. I might have another opinion if I worked for deadbeats. Probably not.

posted by Will Beever on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Taxes: I'm really tired of people who think a tax deduction somehow steals from them. A deduction reduces how much you (the govt) take from me. Corporations and shareholders are already double taxed on dividends. You (the govt) are not entitled to ANY of a Corp's money, except that made over and above operating expenses. (Insert Fairtax org plug here). Also, the IRS is VERY strict about classification of business or personal travel. It requires extensive documentation and backup data for claims of deductions for business travel (even more so in larger corporations). "Fat cats" have their personal use reported and taxed individually.

Constitutionality: I wish I were a constitutional expert. I read it once but don't remember much about it. I hope I read through it again some day. However, in my gut, this feels like a move in the wrong direction. Discretion for govt and exposure of privacy for individuals and companies is a progressive move. I'm sorry for the label. I don't have my iThesaurus handy. Until I have the option of using the govt system, you don't have the right to the data it collects.

posted by Will Beever on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Since when have we thrown out the concept of personnal privacy? I happen to have worked hard enough using aviation as a part of my business to be able to afford to fly a turbine aircraft for personal and business travel. As such I fly in class A airspace and I am required to file IFR--there is no other option. In my view, the government has no right to make public my movements. and I am a BARR subscriber. When I fly for business, there are many valid reasons for not wanting competitors to be able to track our travels. Painting the use of corporate aircraft as class warfare is narrow minded at best and un-American at worst. Since when did bashiing business and financial success become acceptable? If we are to believe in capitalism, we should all be in favor of success. If someone plays by the rules, is clever, and can afford to operate a jet, I say, "Isn't America a wonderful place!!" The presumption that anyone who does not want their aviation activities tracked must be up to no good is absurd. It is all about privacy and we should all be concerned when the government loses that value.

posted by John Hayes on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

“But this is far less sensitive than that.”

No. It’s not.

One is no more or less sensitive than the other. One does not trump the other. They are Fundamental. Or they are not.

Sure, we have circumstances where we have no reasonable expectation of privacy. And they are the exception, not the rule. We have circumstances where, if criminal activity is suspect, trumps privacy concerns. Again, the exception, not the rule.

But to argue that if one uses one form of Tax Payer funded infrastructure (FAA/ATC/Business Tax deductions, negates privacy), but another Tax Payer funded infrastructure does not (Medicare/Medicaid/Interstate highway system, Personal Tax deductions) , is without logic or at best flawed.

As for you earlier question “Gee, what does a liberal "sound" like? Perhaps you could hum a few bars for me.”; Ok, here goes and it sounds a little something like this:

“As for "snoopy" journalists, if it weren't for them and a robust First Amendment, you would know nothing,”

You’re willing to negate one fundamental right over another. Whether for agenda, personal gain, or flawed logic we do not know.

You’re willing to negate fundamental personal rights for the perceived social good (The fat cats get bailouts, we get to know everyone’s whereabouts).

Instead of addressing the problem (bailouts/tax cheats/criminal activity) you have ignored the Fourth Amendment and are attempting to stand only on the First.

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

I think I'm about done here. Everything that needs to be said has been said at least once and it's clear that the majority thinks that we should be able to block flights if we want. It's also clear that a majority think we should have MORE transparency from our government folks. Other than that John pretty well sums up the majority opinion.

posted by Stuart Baxter on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

John, just curious, what type of turbine plane do you fly?

posted by Gordon Arnaut on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, you have this wrong. If you operate a privately owned Turbine aircraft there is no alternative to "go VFR". I am privately owned and (currently) blocked for many of the privacy issues others have raised. There is NO justification to allow my aircraft whereabouts to be published in real time on the internet without giving me a process to have it remain blocked.

posted by Steve Vollum on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

So let me get this right, we want to share information with those that are going to critize anyway. Why confuse them with any facts. Unless they is personnal gain the proven Human Condition is to condem when it doesn't benefit them. Stockholders, you mean the same fools that paying 10 times what a CEO is worth, just for Tah-da... They ought to already know what is being spent, oh that is right, as long as the stock is rising, Tah-da...

posted by Chuck West on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

I realize that this is not the best place for me to be heard..but please do hear that I've been flying Corp. Aircraft for 30+ years-this is one thing I kow about from a front-row seat. This big-brother concept is unconstitutional,and anti-business. A "right" to know just because the ATC/Airport system is Govt. run? Really? Wow. Let's find out EVERYWHERE everyone is driving then also.

There are VERY real competitive and security concerns out there. I'm a bit shocked and saddened to see the tide of pilots so eager to give away the rights of the other guy. The government & IRS already know everywhere we go every day--there's no need or right to post that on the internet for millions-EVERYONE to see.

Business is not the enemy--it employs millions and makes the products we need. Don't strip privacy from all to catch a few that might be operating in ways that you might not approve of.

Finally, should a CEO responsible for tens of thousands of jobs, billions of sales, paid millions, be forced on the airlines/charter after a 75-hour work week while the company aircraft sits silent in the hangar on the weekend? The logic here is really faulty--but so often, that's okay when its only applied to the other guy.

posted by Curt Brown on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

How about a compromise? Currently the taxpayers at large pay for the ATC system, correct? If the ATC users would like their use of this publically funded service to be private, then I propose that the system be pair for with user fees rather than tax money. Would that be an acceptable compromise?

posted by Jon Howard on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

"You’re willing to negate one fundamental right over another. Whether for agenda, personal gain, or flawed logic we do not know."

It may shock you to learn, sir, that the Republic, the courts and the people have been doing just that for 235 years. And what possible personal gain could there be here other than the presentation of an opinion for discussion? And why does someone who you disagree with you have an "agenda" while you, apparently, do not? Your ideological slip may be showing.

As for the negating one for the other you seem so alarmed about, we have a First Amendment that guarantees freedom of assembly. Yet you need a permit for a demonstration and sometimes they are denied.

The Second protects the right to keep and bear, but bearing them in some places without government permission is a felony. The Fourth protects against unlawful search and seizure, yet a cop can conduct warrantless search on his own judgment of probable cause, just the sort of thing the Fourth was supposed to keep pissed off Colonists from having to endure at hands of British Customs agents.

The point is, as much as amateur Constitutionalists might wish otherwise, the Bill of Rights is not the one-size-fits all perfection we imagine it to be. It can be rubbery. (Do a little research on Fourth Amendent and privacy and you'll see what I mean.)

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Depending on where the FAA wants to go with this, it could take a court test and I have no idea where it would go. If it made SCOTUS, Justices Scalia and Thomas have not been sympathetic to claimed rights beyond those enumerated, thus the right to fly an airplane in privacy in public airspace might not resonate, even if you and other do see it as a fundamental, inalienable right.

You're confused about tangling up with the First Amendment, however. It applies only to government restraint against publishing information and restricting freedom of speech, not actually acquiring the information. The First has nothing to do with the privacy issue.

Privacy claims have emanated from the Fourth Amendment, the Ninth and even the 14th. It's an uncertain area of the law, thus most scholars seem to say there is no enumerated right to privacy.

Look, my view is that if this information is going to be disseminated to the public, it should apply equally to all, including the government itself. Your view is the opposite and that's fine. I wouldn't accuse you of having an agenda just because you don't see it the way I do. Please give me the same courtesy.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

I am OK with this scrutiny, only if It include ,ALL modes of transportation including walking, maybe we should create an NEW agency to run it and why not a CZAR all funded by NEW Taxes, yeah! That,s it...

posted by Christian Fournier on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Hi Gordon! Actually, I wasn't engaged in an ad hominem attack, but thank you for saying that you thought I had, since I wouldn't like my points to be dismissed so easily. If you re-read the post, you'll see that I attacked the policy. I described it as "statist overreach," said it was being marketed in an "Orwellian" fashion, and reminded people of what happened to Rebecca Schaeffer as a result of a very similar policy in the past (I didn't realize, when I wrote it, that Congress actually DID pass a Rebecca Schaeffer Act - but it applies only to information collected by State DMVs). In relation to Paul, I did say that I believe him to be a man not easily fooled by such things as Orwellian marketing, and that I do not believe him to be a supporter of statist overreach. I did accuse him of trolling, i.e., making a posting for the specific purpose of generating an energetic, if not outraged response. Given the volume and tone of response to his posting, and the disconnect between his posting and the impression I have of him from his other writings, it seems like a reasonable conclusion to draw. If Paul is offended by the accusation, and is not trolling, then apparently I have misunderstood him - which I admit I may have, since I don't know him personally. Cheers!

posted by Thomas Boyle on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

... "amateur Constitutionalists"

Well, what—pray, tell—is a "professional Constitutionalist"? I'll tell you: a professional word-parser ... a person that ... "has various definitions on what the meaning of 'is', is". We're talking moral and legal relativism, here, which in my most humble opinion, is the precursor to a collapse of society.

Funny thing, though: aviators have no business being relativists ... it's antithetical to everything we're taught. Either something is, or its not ... no "muddy middle".

Most aviators can read the Fourth Amendment, and clearly understand the protections against unlawful search and seizure. Problems begin when the progressivists, relativists, and word parsers rule the day, which in our society, happens all too often.

posted by Phil Derosier on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

To folks who believe there is such a thing as "the Constitution" and that it has any practical meaning, I have some bad news: it doesn't. The Supreme Court has rarely overruled the Executive Branch since Roosevelt threatened to stack the court, and today it largely functions as a rubber stamp. Consider the case, Gonzales v Raich, in which the Court ruled that a plant grown at home for personal consumption, at home, constituted "interstate commerce," despite the fact that neither commerce, nor more than one state, was involved. The interpretations given to the words of the constitution have long since departed from any connection to their plain meaning. The "Constitution" is a distraction. It means nothing, and protects nothing. The only protection is us. And that hasn't been going so well.

posted by Thomas Boyle on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, The fundamental problem with the progressive thought process is that one shoe fits all. In this case the simple answer of making this a option does not pass the "fairness" test. Every time I hear this word I get nauseous because life is not fair. Some of us wish to not be in the public spotlight. In the case of where a private citizen or a company is going is not anyone's business. What part of this don't you get? Your so called right to know does not trump everyone else's rights. If you have some huge urge to know where GE's aircraft are going than as they are a public company file a public dis-closer thing or what ever you do but don't make it routine that we have to tell everyone where we are going.

Either that or make all business give notice of all business travel by car, by airline, by bus, by boat, by motorcycle, by Recycle, by crawling. Do not discriminate against aircraft.

posted by Stuart Baxter on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

"If we are to believe in capitalism, we should all be in favor of success."

Who is more "successful," Warren Buffet or Neil Armstrong?

And why should we "believe" in capitalism? Is this a religion now?

Anyway what does "success" have to do with hiding your airplane's movements? Maybe because there is cheating going on?

posted by Gordon Arnaut on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

I think the term is "tactical retreat".

posted by Rush Strong on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Sorry, don't know how that was re-sent.

posted by Rush Strong on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Gordon you make no sense. Your ranting proves you need counseling. Why Paul hasn't made your silly rants go away escapes me. Maybe the accusation of trolling has some merit.

posted by Stuart Baxter on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Gordon,

P.S. If it makes you feel any better, think of "trolling" as "acting as a devil's advocate."

Separately, though, did you really just roll out the "no-one needs privacy unless they have something to hide" fallacy? Or was that a little devil's advocacy of your own? ;-)

posted by Thomas Boyle on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

There is not much more to say on this topic. I just want to weigh in and say that although I disagree with Paul, I admire (as always) his courage to bring it up and state his honest opinion, even if it is contrary to the standard "industry promotion" we predictably get from all the alphabet groups. Aviation journalism desperately needs more people like Paul to tell us the truth as they see it.

posted by Robert Thomason on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

@Gordon - FYI, I use my middle name except for "official" records which stupidly require first name use. I am in fact an owner-pilot...but you'll have a devil of a time figuring that out without my first name. My little privacy work-around.

posted by Grant Ellis on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, by your logic you must support the realtime, public release of all SmartTag data. The government has it, and therefore you should have access to it, that's your clear position. The only difference is the vehicle.

You state feel you have the right to peruse information about the movements of other citizens simply because the Government collected that data in the course of delivering a service (in this case ATC, but why not toll collection?). You justify your right to this information by conflating the privacy issues with your apparent desire to make the task of investigative journalism easier on you, and then by dismissing the whole notion of privacy when we move around our Country. Very convenient, if not self serving.

posted by Jason Devine on June 1, 2011[report abuse]

"The point is, as much as amateur Constitutionalists might wish otherwise, the Bill of Rights is not the one-size-fits all perfection we imagine it to be. It can be rubbery."

This is where I hoped you were not going, but suspected all along.

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

My fellow "amateur Constitutionalists", I'm afraid that this train probably cannot be stopped. I have seen, in my lifetime, the pendulum swing. I know, I know, every generation claims this is the worst; but I've taken a hard look at what my parents and several generations back were taught, how they worked, what they worked for and what they believed in. It sounds campy. It sounds sappy. It sounds corny to some, but everything, fundamentally returned to "We the People". Not we the collective or this government has ordained. Growing up, we might not have had everything we wanted. There might have been some days of no meat on the table but we certainly had everything we needed, and we absolutely had a firm grasp of personal freedom and how it pertained not only to us, but the person next to us.

Where this topic of conversation arose and gone has once again shown the pervasive erosion of those freedoms. He we are. On an aviation forum, not talking about the latest gadget, but about basic freedoms that many thought we had at least put to paper years ago.

I am a low time pilot. My certificate not yet a year old. In many ways I have beaten myself up for not fulfilling my dream sooner, but I'm glad I did. However I am quickly realizing that LSA might be in my future a lot quicker that I thought. Not because of a medical condition but because maybe for a time, it might put me one more step removed from someone's "rubbery" interpretation.

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

How's this for "rubbery"?:

"I think they should just end it entirely. The Department of Transportation is publically funded, works in the public interest and it shouldn't be in the business of disguising automobile movements. If security is really an issue, don't release the data in real time, offset it by 24 hours for those who request that."

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

Stuart, please keep it civil. It is a sign of weakness to be the first to resort to name calling in a debate.

The "sense" I am making is that real success is not measured in dollars. Neil Armstrong's footsteps on the moon is success on a large scale.

On a smaller scale, so is designing a new jet engine that gets better fuel economy, or successfully flight testing a new airplane type.

This is raising the bar of man's capability to fly through the atmosphere or even space. It is accomplishing something real.

What success is not: conspicuous consumption; getting a free ride on taxes because you and other billionaires have the lobbying power and political contributions to get the lawmakers to do your bidding; casino gambling with the savings of ordinary folks and even their mortgages...the list is very very long...

Eddie decries here that things have changed. Yes they have. But what has been the biggest change that affects all of us? It has been the rise and even celebration of unbridled greed.

Specifically this has manifested itself as the "financialization" of our economy. Nobody here seems to care that 35 percent of GNP is sucked up by a Wall Street tax.

How much more is possible? 50 percent? Why not? This is how it is in some third world countries.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

And speaking of third world-countries, they are full of "success" as it is defined here. Lots of "successful" people with bizjets living the champagne and caviar lifestyle.

Of course, they have none of the other kinds of success in science, technology, medicine, etc.

Is that the role model of success we are talking about here? Just wondering?

posted by Gordon Arnaut on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

"Do not discriminate against aircraft."

We already do that. And aircraft owners agree to it without reservation. We require aircraft to file IFR flight plans (in Class A); we require them to carry a tracking device (transponder); we require them to maintain radio contact and tell us where they are going. All of this is overseen by a government agency and those who participate do so willingly because they and the rest of society believe it is in their communal interest not to have airplanes run into each other.

So what we are discussing here is a threshold issue--the clash of two principles, openness in government and the right to privacy. That's why it will make an interesting court case, if it ever gets there. One of the recurring themes in Fourth Amendment cases is what constitutes unlawful search. You can find these cases yourself, but the general doctrine is that a search occurs if the person expects privacy in the thing searched and/or society believes that expectation is reasonable. Use the phone booth analogy. The person expects privacy, so tapping the line or eavesdropping (by government) is a Fourth Amendment issue.

So here we have willing participants in what is really nothing but a government-run surveillance network. Would a court say the general public has no right or interest to this network in action based on Fourth Amendment doctrine? It might or might not. The arguments would be interesting.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

As for corporations, they do not have the right to privacy when it comes to protecting documents or information held by the government. This was a recent SCOTUS case in which a unanimous decision--including all the court's conservatives--ruled that corporations don't have personal privacy rights. This was the case against AT&T in which John Roberts closed his opinion by saying, "We trust AT&T will not take it personally."

I might note that this gives lie to your claim that "The fundamental problem with the progressive thought process is that one shoe fits all." I doubt if Judge Roberts would be mistaken for a progressive. In this case, at least, he did what I futilely hope all of us should do: Consider any idea of its own merit irrespective of it having been vetted by conservative or liberal camps. My own personal view is that there are good ideas and bad ideas and maybe so mediocre ones in between. I don't care who the hell authors them if they make sense.

If this challenge makes SCOTUS, hard to say how it would go. But I'd bet the privacy argument would lose, based on cited doctrine in AT&T vs. FCC. Although this is inconsistent with the Citizen's United case, that's SCOTUS for you. No one size fits all.

If I were trying to argue this case against release of flight data, I might come at it from a restraint of trade strategy. Being an amateur constitutionalist myself, what's that, commerce clause in the 10th Amendment?

I think we will see a challenge of some kind.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

Paul,

I accept the point that (especially publicly traded ones) corporations don't have a right to "personal" privacy, but your position on this matter makes no distinction between corporations and individuals. What say you about individuals, who do have a claim to personal privacy, who are caught up in this?

Corporate accountability and personal privacy should be MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. There are plenty of strictly privacy based reasons why any of us might prefer to not have our aircraft movements trackable by the public, in real-time.

As for corporate owned aircraft, the only people who have business knowing how its used are shareholders/employees and the Government (IRS, FAA, etc). The Government already has the info and shareholders of each company can manage how they get that information. Just because you want easy access to this info doesn't make you entitled to it.

Another specious argument here is that because were already tracked by the FAA for safety purposes, it's OK to release that data to the public. That's just ridiculous in my opinion.

I'm really surprised how some in the GA community are ok with this. I reiterate, if this is ok, then why shouldn't SmartTag transactions also be public, real-time???

posted by Jason Devine on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

"why shouldn't SmartTag transactions also be public, real-time???"

It's a fair question. But the comparison is specious because of the doctrine of expectation. You are not required to have a SmartTag to drive on the highway. And if you do have one, you have not signed up to be tracked, to tell a government agency where you are going and to communicate with them. There is an expectation of privacy. (Probably.)

For the reasons I've cited above, this is not the case when you fly IFR. You have voluntarily acceded to government surveillance in exchange for certain benefits. So the question for a court to decide is whether there is an expectation of privacy and whether the government should be enjoined to protect it.

What's changed is the technology. This tracking has existed since the dawn of air traffic control, but technology has now made it possible for it to exist in plain view. So are you losing a right? Or is this simply a right you never had in the first place? Not easy to answer. I suspect Justice Scalia would say, as he has in the past, that this is not an enumerated right and if you want it to be one, have the legislative branch cook up a law saying as much.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

Part of the challenge may be no ready paradigm. For cellphones, it was easier. The statutes recognized the privacy of phone lines so that was more or less carried over to apply to cellphones, both for governments and individuals. There may be a paradigm for airspace, too, but the fit isn't quite so perfect, since few in-the-open activities require participants to agree to government surveillance.

My thinking is shaped by my experience. As a journalist, photos taken in public are generally fair game for publication; photos in private settings require model releases. Since I understand that applies to me, too, I don't much care who photographs me or knows where and when I travel. Not that I'm a choir boy, mind you, I just don't care. I accept that others don't share this view.

So the bottom line tradeoff remains transparency in government vs. privacy. Here, the two are in conflict. Makes me wonder if the DOT lawyered this before the policy was proposed. I can't imagine that it did not.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

Many of the participants here seem to have a very deep misunderstanding of just who operates in the flight levels. Once you get above FL180, the traffic consists primarily airliners and private turbine aircraft; many of which are operated by private owners. These are folks who love aviation and fly their own airplanes for business and for personal travel--just like you guys who fly piston airplanes for the love of it. As the past president of two owner groups for turbine aircraft, I am well acquainted with a large number of these private owners who pilot their own airplanes (totaling more than 600 folks all together.) Believe it or not, many of these folks , have amped up their airplane addiction to the very limit of what they can afford--just like many of you. Yes, they shop fuel prices and no, they are not "fat cats" sipping champaign and laughing at the little people below. Many of these folks fly for Angel Flight and other charitable causes. Some of them love to share flight data and others prefer to have the option of blocking their movements--which they consider private information. This is purely an issue of privacy. Just because we all drive on publicly funded roads that does not give the government the right to publish our comings and goings when we drive. The same rules should apply when we fly.

posted by John Hayes on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

Well said, John.

Paul, just because we "voluntarily accede" to be tracked in return for the safety of IFR should not mean that we also accede to having that information made public to parties with no need for it. I never thought I'd find a bright side to ATC privatization and user-fees, but you're making that case. By your logic, if we were paying a private entity for ATC, the public has no claim to that data.

I simply don't understand and don't accept that simply because we now have the technology to publish government data related to movement, collected incident to a service, that such information should be public. If the data were non-identifying, I wouldn't have an issue. If corporate owned aircraft were tracked separately from individual owned aircraft I wouldn't have an issue, but they aren't. Frankly, I consider N numbers personal identifiable information (PII) because the FAA publishes registration and certificate data (names and addresses) to the public.

posted by Jason Devine on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

What about me, the single engine pilot who owns his airplane individually, pays for it out of pocket with his after tax income, and uses it exclusively for personal travel, no differently than my Toyota? Should my travel be an open book broadcast by the FAA, on the simple basis that I use ATC services? I pay for that with my fuel. If that's reasonable, must agree it is appropriate to expose and broadcast your car's movements, your metro pass swipes, your airline ticket purchases and so on, because these use publicly funded services too. Should HHS broadcast the appointment times of Medicare recipients? Shall we have no maintenance of privacy of any information we provide the government, which we pay mightily to protect?

You need to think about this issue more deeply and rescind this article. This is an unprecedented invasion of privacy that affects our community exclusively, and to acquiesce is inconsistent with general aviation advocacy. You would surrender the privacy rights of every pilot to facilitate transparency in public corporations? Did you ever consider that shareholders could demand documentation of fleet use, and execs are bound by law to produce it? And you think a real-time government broadcast of my whereabouts fosters "sunshine government?" Were you behind the eight hour rule when you wrote this?

Get your head around the larger issues here and your duty as a prominent aviation writer, or go write for Business Week or USA Today.

posted by Mike Harris on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

Mark, I could do without these personal insults aimed at me. Debate the point and leave where you think I should be writing out of it.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

"Rescind this article?"

Why? Because you disagree with it? Why not rescind the First Amendment while you are at it?

Also learn some civility. Nobody comes here to be gratuitously insulted.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

"You are not required to have a SmartTag to drive on the highway. And if you do have one, you have not signed up to be tracked, to tell a government agency where you are going and to communicate with them. There is an expectation of privacy."

Maryland (a very Liberal state) is already attempting to limit access to certain roads in which EZ-Pass (nee, 'Smart Tags') will be required for entry. Furthermore, automobile transponder (Smart Tag) tracking has already been used as evidence during the discovery process (typically for divorce cases). Objections to this passive tracking by the wayward spouse has tupically been overruled by the presiding judge.

I guess my point is, if something can be done—chances are that it will. Privacy and progressivism cannot — and will not — not co-exist.

posted by Phil Derosier on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

... and my apologies for "fat finger disease" in my previoous post.

posted by Phil Derosier on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

"Debate the point and leave where you think I should be writing out of it."

Paul, Here's your statement with one Government department replaced with another, and one form of transportation replaced with another:

"The Department of Transportation is publically funded, works in the public interest and it shouldn't be in the business of disguising automobile movements."

If you see a difference from the above with your original statement, there can be no debate.

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

""Do not discriminate against aircraft."

We already do that. And aircraft owners agree to it without reservation. We require aircraft to file IFR flight plans (in Class A); we require them to carry a tracking device (transponder); we require them to maintain radio contact and tell us where they are going. All of this is overseen by a government agency and those who participate do so willingly because they and the rest of society believe it is in their communal interest not to have airplanes run into each other."

You say we already discriminate against aircraft, and then describe why we do not. The flight plan/transponder/radio contact is to prevent collision. Not to keep record of individuals/businesses. How is knowing the ownership information of that aircraft prevent collision? If the guys name is Bob you turn him left, if it's Sally, you tell her to descend?

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, your discussion of "rights" is a legalistic one. Rights do not emerge from the law: laws acknowledge rights, and usually only grudgingly.

As privacy laws now recognize, users expect that information supplied to commercial service providers will be used for limited purposes, directly related to the services.

We expect the government to behave at least as well as a commercial provider, and are outraged that, instead, it is abusing its power, and doing something a commercial provider could not get away with. That it has the legal ability to get away with it, does not make it acceptable.

Finally, somewhat OT, I reject the statist idea, expressed in this discussion, that "flying is a privilege, not a right." Even the Supreme Rubber Stamp has (recently!) recognized that "liberty" (the right to engage in peaceful activity of any sort) is an actual, constitutional right, and regulation must serve a legitimate government purpose - see Lawrence v Texas. Flying - like almost any peaceful activity - is presumptively a right, not a privilege (reasonable regulation of that right is acceptable - but it IS a presumptive right). Regulating, therefore, is the privilege, and is NOT a right. Our regulators need more reminding of that. Or, perhaps, it is we who need more reminding of it.

posted by Thomas Boyle on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

I think I explained the car/airplane analogy above. No need to rehash it. One last example. When I was in J-school, and Griswold v. Connecticut was the major privacy doctrine, the popular public privacy story revolved around the newspaper that published a picture of a man with...the other woman. They happened to be in the photo but were not the subject of the photo.

So whose right trumps whom? As a newspaper editor, do I have the right to publish that photo or do the people in it have a privacy right to prevent it? Someone has to decide. Courts do and that's what makes us different from, say, Iran.

All of these assumptions are under constant challenge because of changing technology. An IT friend of mine argues that there is no more privacy. So get used to it. (I'm trying to.)

There's a photo of my house on Googlemaps I would sure as hell not like to be there. You could find it in about three minutes of not-that-dilligent effort. I understand I can't do a thing about it.

And contrary to "there can be no debate," there is always debate. We are allowed to have different opinions in this country and although I might not agree with yours, I respect it. And the last thing I'd ever do is demand you--any reader of this blog--retract any opinion, although I have and will delete abusive messages. And just did...

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

Paul Over the years, you have worked in my interest. You cut through the hyperbole to get to what is important to PRIVATE aviation. (All caps used advisedly). Until recently, a subscription to Aviation Consumer should have been a mandatory part of the Private Pilot curriculum.

I have valued your opinion as someone who looks at situations from my perspective. That is, the perspective of a PRIVATE aviator. You have done and explored things that I do not have the time or capability to do. I have benefited from your insight and experience.

When considering aviation related purchases, my first reference has been Aviation Consumer. This is because you have been willing to stand in the shoes of the PRIVATE aircraft flyer. Thank You

In the N-Number debate, you have fallen into the trap of so many reporters. In order to get an easy story, you have joined the chorus clamoring for release of PRIVATE information.

You have ceased to work in my interest. Your concept of value is significantly different from mine. This action would devalue the ATC system. The publication of PRIVATE activities may some time in the future tip a pilot's decision in favor of scud running instead of using the system. No aviator should in good conscience advocate against safety.

It has been fun, but I will no longer support your magazine.

posted by Mike Hand on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

You won't rescind your article, but you will my comment?

posted by Mike Harris on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

"You won't rescind your article, but you will my comment?"

Look at what you're saying, Mark. You are saying, "I don't agree with you. Take that back. You are not allowed to express that opinion."

What's next? Thought police?

And Mike, sorry you're going over opinion expressed here. I have not ceased working in your interest for having expressed it. Best of luck to you and thanks for the support.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

While Mike Hand was more eloquent, he and Mark Harris expressed the same sentiment. Mark was expressing himself as well as he could, please hear the meaning behinds his poorly chosen words. They both, as do I and many others, feel that the opinion expressed in your blog hurts the interests of the people that you depend on for your livelihood.

There is no public interest served by making FAA Airmen or Aircraft registration public.

There is no better example of how that kind of information can be misused than the murder of Rebecca Schaeffer. So egregious was it that in California, the Driver's Privacy Protection Act was passed to hopefully prevent further misuses of government gathered data.

Why are DMV records illegal to access but even more detailed FAA records easily accessed by anyone with a computer or smartphone? Especially since that information can be used to track a person in real time?

posted by Kris Larson on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, while you may see your access to this information as necessary for your "noble" pursuits, I would venture to guess that most inquiries are far less altruistic.

Why should anyone be able to access Tom Cruse, Harrison Ford, and John Travolta's personal address and track their comings and goings (in airplanes) in real time simply because they are pilots?

But unlike the Tom, Harrison and John, most of us lack the resources to effectively disguise our information or establish corporations or LLCs to hide our ownership of aircraft as we only have one residence (without armed guards) and use it for our PPL/CPL, Medical and aircraft registration.

Paul, what possible purpose is served by making all FAA Airman and Aircraft Registration accessible to all, free of charge, with no accountability? Will it take the stalking and murder of a pilot to get you to see the light?

Paul, by being a published editorial columnist and editor, you have voluntarily become a public figure and given up some of your assumption of privacy. So to you, publishing your address, what aircraft you own and tracking your movements in real time may not seem like a big deal. But the vast majority of (non-public figure, non-CEO) pilots still would like to enjoy our anonymity for just a while longer, at least the anonymity enjoyed by the non-flying public.

posted by Kris Larson on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

"I would venture to guess that most inquiries are far less altruistic."

Examples?

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

"Look at what you're saying, Mark. You are saying, "I don't agree with you. Take that back. You are not allowed to express that opinion.""

That's not at all what I said. Here it is again with the jab. If you suppress this I question your journalistic integrity. See the next post:

posted by Mike Harris on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, if you don't want insults, don't put AVweb's name on your half baked essay recommending the BARR be eliminated in the name of sunshine government or corporate transparency. You are no authority on either, but you are the Editorial Director of a major aviation news source, and by signing your and AVweb's and Belvoir's names to this drivel legitimizes it as that of an aviation authority. It's just an opinion, but yours is a little different. This is not a first amendment issue or a class or tax issue. If you want corporate transparency, take it on - buy stock, go to annual meetings and light fires under the executives you want to smoke out. Demand they publish their flights - it is a matter of corporate governance. If you want transparent government, write an editorial demanding LaHood respect the opinions in the 600 comment submissions on the proposal, the vast majority of which condemned it, including those from flightaware president Daniel Baker himself. Flightaware is against eliminating the BARR, and knows more about it that anyone, but you know better? It is pathetic that a prominent aviation writer, a supposed advocate for general aviation, would throw the privacy of every pilot under the wheels in a lightweight editorial attacking fat cat executive lifestyles. You are in the business of advocating our rights, first. If you don't want to write about that, write nothing at all.

posted by Mike Harris on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

Well Mark, you've said your piece and so have I. And if it is, as you say, drivel, is has no effect on anything so don't waste your time with it.

Make sense?

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

The whole topic is wearing thin. You'd think this BARR repeal nonsense would be an easy call....but then you see people showing this distasteful under-belly of envy, jealousy and contempt.

Candidly, it makes me sad. We shouldn't have to quote the Constitution or get into the legal weeds of "public disclosure" as it relates to government-assisted travel. Why does the simple concept of "mind your own business" bring out the worst in so many people? I don't know but I will say this, if you don't "get" the simple elegance of basic human privacy, maybe you should look for an underlying cause.

I would venture to say that 30 years ago, this debate wouldn't have taken place. Back then, people has a certain grace about privacy. Now, too few of us care enough about our own character to do what's right. Instead, we do what tickles us and then cite a tortured passage from the bible or the Koran or the Constitution to justify our compromised integrity.

The "right thing" isn't that hard to recognize. Curiously, it seems that those with the thinnest skins are the ones seeking to defend a position that they know is indefensible.

Good luck getting your privacy, money, dignity and liberty back once you've surrendered it to your government.

posted by Grant Ellis on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

Paul, you dismiss the aircraft / automobile transponder analogy as specious, but then equate the realtime broadcast of my movements through the NAS to ones house being on Google, or being the inadvertent subject of a newspaper photo. Seriously? Those are on the same level? You can't sign up for alert when I leave my house or when I appear in the background of a media photo.

I only tell the FAA where I am going and expect to be tracked on my way because its necessarily associated with the delivery of ATC services. The purpose of those services safety and efficiency, not alerting the public to my whereabouts. Nowhere in this transaction do I see a public interest or need to broadcast my realtime progress on the Internet against my wishes.

For most of us, services like Flight Aware are quite useful. Family and friend can keep track of progress; pilots can research routes between destinations. However, heretofore we have the option, and yes, a legitimate expectation, that we could remove our tail number from such public tracking sites. Now the Government is eliminating that option and the only reason I keep hearing is because some people want to be able to track business aircraft without limitation. That's a raw deal for the rest of us.

I understand your preference for access given your desire as a journalist to snoop, but I'm a bit surprised you didn't give greater (any?) consideration to individuals who desire to exercise to BARR option for personal privacy reasons.

posted by Jason Devine on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

You're not likely to change my mind on this for the reasons stated above, Harris. But I'll tell you what, if you--or anyone else--wants to write a guest blog countering this point of view, I will happily publish it.

Keep it civil and on the issues without attacking personalities, please. Whoever contacts me first has first crack at it. Contact me via e-mail from the addresses in the staff box.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

"I would venture to guess that most inquiries are far less altruistic."

"Examples?"

That's it? That's your best argument for why the public needs access to the names and home addresses of every pilot in the USA?

I gave a very specific example of how someone DIED because of the ease of access to this exact kind of information. How many deaths will it take to convince you that it is a very, very bad idea to allow the public unfettered access to personal information?

I guess you answered one of my questions Paul; it WILL take the stalking and death of a pilot to change your mind.

But just as ones DMV record is protected under the law, ones FAA information should be too. There is no difference (other than FAA data is even more dangerous as it can also be used to track someone in real time).

posted by Kris Larson on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

"there is always debate."

But you're not debating it. You have not shown how your theory applies to other forms of movement. If your theory holds true regarding the FAA, it should hold true, and apply to, any other department. Therefore:

If you use FAA services, you should expect your N-number and personal information to be made public. If you use DOT services, you then should expect your tag number and personal information to be made public.

This is clearly not the case. You cite the use of transponders and N-numbers to facilitate safety, which I think we all agree. You have not debated nor shown the need to use that information for any other reason:

"those who participate do so willingly because they and the rest of society believe it is in their communal interest not to have airplanes run into each other." Is not debating the use of N-numbers to release personal information. It is simply stating the information is to be used, and users have agreed, to prevent collisions.

So then again, how is knowing the owners information used to prevent collision? IF the owners name is Bob, have him turn left, IF the owners name is Sally, have her descend? Extrapolate then on your theory, and show all iterations of all names and the appropriate response to prevent collision. What happens then when you have two Bobs on conflict?

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

At the least, there is a difference between aircraft flown by publicly held corporations and those flown by privately held companies and individuals. The latter group should be able to block access when they are forced to file IFR because of the FARs. It is not voluntary to file if the weather is below VFR minima.

posted by Robert Grace on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

Robert, What is the difference in aircraft flown by publicly held corporations? By their very nature, they are public. Simply purchase a share.

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

I hate to say it guys, but even Strict Constitutionalists agree: there is no right to privacy in the constitution or bill of rights. In fact you won't find the word privacy.

posted by Jesse Derks on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

This is not the place I expected to see a wave of class warfare. For that matter the WSJ piece was a useless piece of fluff IMHO.

I must disagree with Paul in this case because I believe the elimination of the BARR program will damage GA as a whole. The majority of heavy iron users do not give a hoot about the joys of flying or the future of GA. It is simply a time machine to allow people to be in more places in a given time.

If security/privacy needs override convenience, the business oriented flights will not fly, reducing the need to have an airplane. Fewer hours will be flown, less fuel will be consumed. Why should we care? Jobs, jobs, jobs. The drop in GA use will get worse. Fewer pilots, crew members, fewer folks in flight departments, fewer of the scarce manufacturing jobs, fewer airports. All this in exchange for what?

From where I sit, the elimination of BARR will cost GA a lot more than anyone here in this forum has considered.

posted by Ray Damijonaitis on June 2, 2011[report abuse]

"I hate to say it guys, but even Strict Constitutionalists agree: there is no right to privacy in the constitution or bill of rights."

Incorrect. Strict Constitutionalist look to the Fourth in that We have a right to be secure in our Persons and Effects. Further, the Ninth covers privacy (and other items not listed) specifically.

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

Further still, strict Constitutionalist look to the Constitution as not what is allowed of the People, but what is allowed (or probably even better, not allowed) by Government.

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

Eddie, the "Strict Constructionist" point of view is that if it isn't written, it doesn't exist. You can't enumerate rights not specifically called for. Think of that. There is no right to privacy enumerated no matter what you actively choose to "interpret" as an activist from the 4th. Not only that, but when you chose to go into public, your person is secure but your location is not.

Activists...

posted by Jesse Derks on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

"the "Strict Constructionist" point of view is that if it isn't written, it doesn't exist."

Constitutionalist or Constructionist?

A strict Constitutionalist would perhaps say "If it isn't written, it exist in the 9th and 10th."

" Not only that, but when you chose to go into public, your person is secure but your location is not."

To which entity do you report your location when you go out in public? And how do you normally do this, is it a phone call, e-mail, ankle bracelet? I'm trying to think back, but the only thing close that I may have been required to supply to any form of Government would be my home of record for tax purposes, census or other administrivia, not my location. And even then, I recall a lengthy privacy act statement.

Sheep....

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

"I gave a very specific example of how someone DIED because of the ease of access to this exact kind of information"

Forgive me...I didn't see this example in your messages. I swept the lot of them again. I don't accept that pilots are actually under any more risk due of loss of privacy. I concede the perception may be there.

And by the way, the DMV license plate privacy doesn't really exist to the degree it once did. There are companies out there offering the service to look up plates for a fee. This information can he had.

Does this represent a clear and present danger to society? Does more information mean less safety? I don't really know, but I do know the toothpaste is out of the tube, due to technology. I don't like that a picture of my house is on Googlemaps or that my cellphone calls can be monitored. On the other hand, I accept that I'm not going to change it and live accordingly.

A couple of people have told me they'll stop flying if BARR is eliminated. This strikes me as extreme and whether this is based in principle or practicality, I don't know. I'm no stranger to risk myself, but I don't sense it.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

{I swept the lot of them again. I don't accept that pilots are actually under any more risk due of loss of privacy. I concede the perception may be there."

Well, that takes the cake.

How do I unsubscribe from this thread?

I'll be unsubscribing from AvWeb as well. I already get enough statist idiocy without having it delivered by subscription.

posted by Grant Ellis on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

It is a matter of how to deal with new technologies.

There are now towns that scan every license plate and run the IDs that enters or leaves it borders. Should this information now be public in real time?

The majority of the Red Light Camera systems in this country are actually continuos video streams. That data stream is available to a Freedom of Information request. Should that information be public, or on a web site in real time as well?

Illinois had a brouhaha recently where a news organization wanted the name and address of every gun owner, for no particular reason and you can scan the media for the outrage that resulted from that. (Resulted in new law that prevents the release of that information)

posted by Ray Damijonaitis on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

As technology evolves, many things, previously impractical, become possible. What we do with these abilities has to be balanced between the public good vs privacy rights. None of the posts here seem to provide more than a prurient 'want to know' or punish the fat cats mentality. On the other hand there are clearly bad things can happen, ranging from corporate espionage to an increased risk to life and property.

The next time you are using the IFR system, consider the fact that someone can learn that you are out of town, find your home address and make an attempt to burglarize your property whether or not your family remains at home. Alarmist, impossible you say? In an earlier age criminals would scan the newspapers for the addresses of the recently deceased and conduct robberies based on the day of the funeral.

I am all for openness in government, but there should be a difference between openness in what the government is doing and what the government knows about a private individual. After all, I might want to get a copy of your personal taxes, just to see if you truly are one of the evil rich. :')

Lets figure out a way to provide access for the flight information to those who have a legitimate need, while preserving the privacy needs of those who use and fund the system.

posted by Ray Damijonaitis on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

Ray, yours is one of the few intelligent comments here.

I tend to agree with you that public scrutiny of the heavy iron bizjets may have an effect on reducing the hours flown. Why? Because the increased scrutiny will make it more difficult to disguise pure pleasure trips as business writeoffs.

Rather than pay their own freight, the business elite (and I'm not talking about some mom and pop operation that flies around in a Beechjet partnership or the like) who have become used to their free lunch, will probably reduce some of those pleasure trips posing as business.

Okay. But is that going to be the end of the world and really bad for GA? I say resoundingly no.

First of all GA does not need dishonest practices to survive and prosper. Second, the GA industry needs to start focusing more on the bottom end and not just the top echelon.

We need manufacturers to dedicate talent and resources to reviving grass roots aviation at the private level, as well as mom and pop enterprises (and that goes right up to modest turbine equipment).

The trend in GA has been overwhelmingly to the elite level, and the large bizjets dominate the industry. At the same time, the bottom end has been fading away. This needs to be reversed and we need to start reeling in the free-lunchers if we are going to do that.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

Ray,

I’d be interested in hearing who you’d think would have a legitimate need.

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

"Forgive me...I didn't see this example in your messages. I swept the lot of them again. I don't accept that pilots are actually under any more risk due of loss of privacy. I concede the perception may be there. "

Paul, Kris Larson did give such an example. So did I. Search the blog again for the term "Schaeffer."

Cheers!

posted by Thomas Boyle on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

Gordon, The business jets pay for much of the infrastructure (airports) we use now. I fail to see how reducing or eliminating business jet traffic helps the bottom end.

I think you are falling victim to the class warrior's fallacy of the zero sum game, the idea that one flier's loss is another flier's gain.

posted by Thomas Boyle on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

OK, got it. Missed it in the first sweep. Thanks.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

Paul,

I don't think "material risk of death" is an appropriate requirement for requesting privacy, and in all honesty I think the risk of death from stalking is probably fairly low for most of us.

The risk of stalking, not so low. I personally know someone who has been stalked (harmlessly, but creepily) through FlightStalker (or whatever). It was a woman, by the way, stalking a guy.

For a group of people wanting more women to join us, creating real-time stalking tools with no opt-out does not seem smart. Or even considerate.

posted by Thomas Boyle on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

Guys, please tone it down a little. I've just deleted a few messages that are around the bend. You can disagree with ideas without calling people stupid or labeling them in some way. If you don't want to participate, then don't. All comments and ideas are welcome; invective is not.

Good point on the stalking, Thomas.

posted by Paul Bertorelli on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

Thomas, bizjet traffic is certainly not going to be eliminated.

We may see a reduction in flight hours if some of the cheating going on now is exposed to public scrutiny.

As for the possible gain at the lower end of the GA spectrum, well let me ask you: How much investment is going into piston aircraft or even small turboprops and turbofans?

I work in the industry and I know that it is basically zero. All of the investment is in the heavy iron. We need to change this or there will be no private aviation left at all.

Yes, the financial and business elite will continue to buy the large bizjets and they will be the only GA traffic flying.

That is the unmistakable trend and is borne out by the declining statistics in hours flown, avgas consumed, piston new manufacture numbers, and every other statistic.

That is the way the wind is blowing. The world is not going to end if we make it harder for the fat cats to cheat on their taxes and shareholders.

Fact is we already live in a zero-sum system and that is the choice of the elite who have imposed that system.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

And I have said this before. The real problem is the amount of info publicly available on airmen and airplane owners. This is a far greater breach of privacy than publicizing airplane movements in the ATC system.

Few or none private aviators make use of blocking now, but their personal info is readily available on the FAA website.

I think the consternation here is misdirected. Get the FAA to stop publishing personal info and then N-number tracking won't matter.

posted by Gordon Arnaut on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

"I’d be interested in hearing who you’d think would have a legitimate need."

I'd start with law enforcement and then listen to the arguments of who else has a 'need'. Unlike a FOIA, being nosey does not describe a legitimate need.

For the record, I don't care whether a corporate aircraft is used for business or pleasure. It is up to the owners of the private corporation, or Board of Directors and stockholders in a public one to control the personal benefit element of aircraft use. I do find the animus against CEOs disturbing. All these folks have employment contacts which govern the personal use of the company plane. I suspect nearly all such private benefit meets the contract terms, so there is nothing improper about GA flights being used for a leisure activity. If you don't like the upper echelon's compensation package, I think you should take an ownership stake or buy stock in a company and complain about the practice there. Better yet, become a member of that echelon and lead by example by paying your own freight.

Before one rails about the deductibility of this kind of use, complain the the feds who write and enforce the code. There are a lot of deductions I think could be eliminated that are not airplane related.

Coke does not need to track where Pepsi's plane goes nor vice a versa.

posted by Ray Damijonaitis on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

Hi Gordon,

We agree on much of what you say about investment in small aviation. I'd love to see (a lot) more of it. I'm thrilled by the creativity unleashed by LSA and would love to see that all the way up to 12,500lbs/300kt/6 seats/25,000 ft. But small aviation has to succeed on its own merits: hurting the heavy iron won't help. Again, heavy iron's loss is not small aviation's gain; it's just aviation's loss. The Class Warrior's Fallacy is just that: false.

I can't claim to know how to make small aviation successful, but I suspect that it will require a) massive price reductions and b) designs almost anyone can fly, with limited training, in most weather conditions. I don't think anyone knows how to do either (there are some good ideas on both - think UAV technology meets mass production), so the market is limited to hard-core enthusiasts who can pay a lot, and have time and money for extensive skill development.

Separately, I also agree with you that it's not a good thing that FAA publishes personal info on its web site. But, once someone knows your tail number, they can physically stalk you through FlightStalker and you can't stop them, so I think N-number tracking still matters.

posted by Thomas Boyle on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

I said this at the very beginning of this blog but it's worth repeating.

With the exception of law enforcement who has a legitimate (based on a warrant) reason:

ANYONE WHO HAS THEIR FAA INFORMATION ACCESSED SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW WHO ACCESSED IT...PERIOD

posted by Kris Larson on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

Ray, do you find it disturbing that the financial sector sucks out 35 percent of GDP?

I have said this before. Finance is an extractive activity that takes out from the real economy, just like government taxes and fees.

We are headed to a third world economy where most of the wealth is in a few hands. That is disturbing.

The "remedies" you speak of are laughable. Individual shareholders have no say whatsoever, which you would know if you have ever been to an annual meeting.

The problem is that the financial and business elite controls the political class through their monopoly on political contributions.

As a result government is implementing their agenda. The trend of the last 30 years has been to give greater advantage to big business and big finance---at the direct expense of small business and workers.

Why do you want to cheerlead for big business and big finance?

posted by Gordon Arnaut on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

--The way to avoid will be simple: just use aircraft that are not owned by the company. This will completely change the dynamic of flight operations, but provide anonimity if only charters and fractionals are tracked.

In my home state within the past decade or so, one executive was kidnapped for ransom and killed, another was stalked by a disturbed individual with a knife for an insane reasons. Things happen, and we need not make it easier.

Imagine that YOUR picture is on the cover of news magazines, on Television. Imagine YOUR salary is in the annual reaport. Now, imagine that everyone in the country can track your movements.

I can assure you that the government (IRS and others) has the ability to watch every flight already. It's not up to the public in general to 'demand' access and play judge here.

The analogy to tracking personal auto use really is apt. Imagine that this philosophy applied to YOU. You wouldn't like googling your name and finding every trip you've taken.

Or, perhaps you wouldn't mind--but that doesn't mean that we should then open that door wide to have everyone in the country see every single flight for others.

It is part of the government's interest to oversee operations (IRS,FBI,etc), but not the 'right' of every person in the world with an internet connection.

Space does not allow addressing aditional competition and insider-trading issues.

posted by Curt Brown on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

“Ray, do you find it disturbing that the financial sector sucks out 35 percent of GDP?"

What change in GDP do we see by simply knowing that Bob is currently flying from Michigan to Florida? Would we see the same change if it were Sally? How does that data correlate, one Bob and a Sally and GDP increases, one Mark and three Johns GDP decreases? If Bob flies to Florida, and no one is there to see it, is there still a change?

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

Did not take long to get derision from you didn't it, Gordon?

This is not a finance forum, social re-engineering forum, nor reconfiguring government or tax policy forum, so I will refrain from name calling and restrict my comments on what I believe will be the result of a removal of the ability to shield your N-number.

There are few benefits of a blanket show everyone where each N-number is going (I assume foreign registry aircraft fall in to this class as well). However there are quite a number of negatives. So we should commit to doing some harm so someone can gnash their teeth about the awful excesses of compensation?

Undoubtedly the big boys may change their mode or transport by firing their aviation departments and renting their planes by the trip from a charter operation or moving to more virtual meetings. This can result in fewer high dollars being logged, which weakens us all whether you understand it or not.

If we are to go down this ill advised path, lets first have a real time list of all the elected, appointed and high level officials traveling in government owned, or governmentally chartered aircraft along with their meals and entertainment costs. That is where the outrage is. Without mentioning names does $2,100,744.59 over a Two-Year Period, Including $101,429 in meals and liquor make sense. I find that disturbing.

posted by Ray Damijonaitis on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

My favor argument in this thread for publishing FAA information is: “WE PAY FOR THOSE PLEASURE TRIPS THROUGH TAX DEDUCTIONS. WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW!”

Meaning: “If ANYTHING is expensed for tax purposes, the Taxpayers have a vested interest in whatever was deducted and have the RIGHT to all information about that expense”

By that (twisted) logic, I’m entitled to the following:

Diet Coke formula Windows source code McDonald’s secret sauce recipe All the performance figures for the Joint Strike Fighter Oh, and the medical records of any person who either deducted the medical expense, had it paid by employer provided insurance (that the employer deducted) or had it paid by a government program (Medicaid or Medicare).

The other problem is that “we” (Taxpayers) didn’t pay for pleasure trips through deductions as non-business use of employer provided vehicles (including airplanes) is taxed to the employee and added to their (taxable) compensation. If that employee is a Director or Key Employee, that information is published in the company annual report.

posted by Kris Larson on June 3, 2011[report abuse]

Ray, I am not the one who took this discussion into socio-political territory.

That was your side, with endless hoots about class warfare, anti-business accusations, etc.

Now that we are here, you don't want to argue my points. Interesting...

Private aviation is on its way out. What used to be a vibrant industry in light aircraft is now barely a niche. Pretty soon it will be gone and then will go the higher levels of owner-pilot, including light turbines.

That's the writing on the wall. I work in the industry. I can tell you that light aircraft are of no concern to anyone.

It is great for the industry that a robber baron class has mushroomed. They love to spend their loot on large-cabin bizjets. This class of airplane did not even exist in the heyday of GA when GA meant light piston singles and twins.

continued...

posted by Gordon Arnaut on June 4, 2011[report abuse]

So to those who say that reining in the robber barons and their free lunch pleasure travels business in G650s and Global Expresses, I say I will believe it when I see it. If only it would be that easy to root out the robber baron class.

They are the ones who are engaged in class warfare and it is real. The financialization of the economy, the offshoring of industry and the accompanying dismantling of the ladders of upward mobility that goes along with an industrial economy.

This is the agenda of the cosmpolitan global elite and it has resulted in unprecedented wealth transfer from the middle and upper-middle classes (yes even the well heeled among us) to those super rich at the very top. The statisticsa are mind-boggling and they are there for anyone to see.

In lockstep with this unprecedented wealth transfer has been the shrinking of light aviation and the huge growth of luxury executive aviation. Gee I wonder if there is a connection in there?

posted by Gordon Arnaut on June 4, 2011[report abuse]

Wow. "Your side" -- that's pretty strong words -- lumping people together by supposed affiliations.

Don't you all realize that this entire discussion is made moot by ADS-B and Mode S? There are privately-owned receivers that share that data over the internet (see planefinder.net).

Planefinder isn't showing Mode S since it isn't location-specific enough (only know the transponder was heard by a specific reciever) but that doesn't mean that it can't (or won't) be used in the future.

Mode S ID maps to N-number which can be looked up on the FAA registration web site and others. ADS-B provides real time 3D positioning information.

I read an article (probably in Smithsonian's Air and Space) about a unit active in the Middle East. A call sign was mentioned. I went back, searched my receiver's database, and determined I watched them deploy.

Granted, I can only see 240NM from my antenna (at ground level), but with data sharing, I can see anywhere in the world in near-real-time (1 minute or less delayed).

No, I don't share my name. That's on purpose. I don't use ADS-B(out) nor have a Mode S transponder. When those become mandatory, I'll have more to think about.

posted by leave blank on June 6, 2011[report abuse]

“Don't you all realize that this entire discussion is made moot by ADS-B and Mode S? There are privately-owned receivers that share that data over the internet (see planefinder.net).“

As far as I understand, ADS-B and Mode S do not broadcast aircraft ownership information. It also does not keep history tracks of an aircraft. So then, the simple removal of the personal data from the airman database and N-number searches could suffice.

As far as third parties are involved (planefinder), RF broadcast, with few exceptions, are perfectly legal to monitor and distribute. Of course, I would fully support an” opt-out” for folks who did not want to be tracked by third parties. After all, those RF signals are used for the pretense of safety, not public tracking.

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 6, 2011[report abuse]

Eddie: you are correct. They broadcast N-number or unique identifier ("Mode-S code") that *can* be looked up in the FAA (or other nations' equivalents).

When it is a private party providing the tracking data, there is no way to opt out. Even if one organization (planefinder for instance) did provide opt-out, I would still have that information for my receiver and could readily post the ID information for planes that I can "see".

posted by leave blank on June 7, 2011[report abuse]

So then, the discussion is not moot.

Even with ADS-B and Mode S, there are simple safeguards that can be implemented to protect personal information. The safeguards are there regarding owners and drivers of automobiles, why not aircraft owners and pilots?

posted by Eddie Robbins on June 7, 2011[report abuse]


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