In our last AVweb episode, we made a hash of explaining how you actually can fly under Class C airspace without ADS-B. This week’s video clarifies that using some unusual airspace east of Los Angeles.
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Just one more thing. Will ADS-B compliance be a requirement to request “Flight Following” service while in Non ADS-B airspace?
Why would it be required, Raf? Nowhere in FAR 91.225 does it talk about flight following requiring ADS-B. Somewhere in the AIM, it says you can’t squit anonymous if you request ATC services (even in non-Rule airspace).
I think the conundrum is that IF you have ADS-B installed, it must be turned on at all times … Rule airspace notwithstanding. But SOME 978 UAT boxes (which require a 1090 transponder to be squawking in order to pick off the code and pressure altitude) have the ability to SQUIT ADS-B with an anonymous code vs your N number. IF you wire in a switch to do that. If you have such an installation AND request ATC services, you must turn off anonymous and squit your “N” number or Flight ID. But if it happens that you’re NOT in Rule airspace and do not have ADS-B, it’s OK. ADS-B not required for ATC services. It’s all about the anonymous mode of a box like the Garmin GDL 82. I don’t know about any others. BTW: There is NO anonymous mode allowed for 1090 installations … it’s ONLY for 978 UATs.
Before I made MY final selection, I talked with FAA’s Jamal (the same Jamal that was shown on an Avweb video last week). HE told me that the FAA has a way that — if necessary — they can still figure out who is squitting anonymous. I don’t know if that’s a wives tale or true but … take it for what he said.
Personally, I predict that ADS-B will ultimately be required everywhere in the future. I don’t see how they’ll keep all the drones and airplanes apart if they don’t do that. Further, that the “ground” stations may become satellites (like they’re doing in C eh D eh N eh) and dual diversity will then be mandated. That’ll likely be a bit further out and us old fogies likely won’t see it. I think they should have just done that from the beginning but … all the cheapskates were already moaning and whining so …
And here I thought that the little sliver of non-Rule airspace in Florida east of the TPA Mode C veil and west of the MCO Mode C veil was narrow. That piece in LA near Ontario is crazy … why don’t they just extend the LAX Rule airspace to cover everything?
Great clarification.
I can only imagine the congested one mile slot outside the Mode C veil and under the 2700 ft ceiling of the Class C illustrated airspace as low and slow, non-electrical, or non-ADS-B equipped higher performance airplanes combined with the occasional, but potentially, ever increasing old bizjet/turbine aircraft whose owners did not want to spend the greenbacks for ADS-B compliance because of cost.
No Mode C transponder, no electrical system, no ADS-B? Nooo problem. Just make sure you have a great pair of Mark III eyeballs equipped with Yeager’s legendary distance eyesight, reflexes of an Olympic athlete, and the flying prowess of Bob Hoover/Sean Tucker as you and a bunch of mixed performance aircraft thread the one mile/1700ft needle ( remember, gotta be 1000ft above populated areas) at the same time with out an airspace bust.
Once the word gets out about these narrow windows of opportunity, it should be a great place for Go-Pro’s and cell phone camera action providing for many YouTube one-hit ( No pun intended), viral wonders. Just add daytime drones to spice for taste or 8 ft span fixed wing, 100kt, oddly lit unidentified flying drones (UFD’s) at night for really hot flavor.
And just think about the other four or so similarly unique airspace located in other congested parts of the country. Combined, these should provide year round action video action. Ideally, these would be great places for Uber to launch and test urban mobility aerial taxis for traffic separation technology.
OK, Paul. That was better, until you revised your “checklist”.
I know you are striving for clarity, but in five bullet points you now have no less than three triple-negatives and one quadruple negative (the struck-out “shelves” point). And that’s counting “don’t need no” as only one negative. Three of the points start with “NO”, and all of the bullets are “X” which mean “No” or “Does not apply”. So ditch the homage to Sierra Madre/Blazing Saddles. Your readers already feel like that stupid cat, and your “checklist” made it worse.
What’s wrong with:
“You must have ADS-B/out to fly:
– inside Class A, B, or C
– inside Mode-C ring
– above Class C
– inside Class E unless within 2,500 agl”
You could re-cast the list by airspace letter:
“You must have ADS-B/out to fly:
– inside Class A
– inside Class B or its Mode-C ring
– inside and above Class C
– inside Class E unless within 2,500 agl”
Notice that I wrote “ADS-B/out” above. I have been equipped with ADS-B/_in_ for years, but that won’t get me access to “ADS-B Rules” airspace. I have no intention of equipping with ‘/out’ until the FAA provides me with an affordable means to prevent every yahoo with a cellphone from seeing my tail number heading to Oshkosh, picking up my address from the FAA website, and walking off with my priceless collection of AVweb gimmie-hats.
As your “corrected” airspace graphic, check out the canonical FAA ADS-B image:
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace/media/airspaceRequirementsSm.jpg
In an attempt to depict the circularity of Class B&C airspace (why?) both of you render them in slight perspective as ovals. This serves no purpose whatsoever, but it does introduce a visual gap between the tops of Class B&C “Rules” airspace and the overlying Class E. THERE IS NO GAP. This is documented by the fine print, but who reads that when the whole point of a graphic is to make a complicated issue clear at a glance?
So when do you intend to address ADAPT? I used it to get out of a Class B on the first day of “Rules”. For a hack of old FAA software it wasn’t half bad, but it still requires training/explanation/simplification.
[resubmitted with correction to Class E airspace altitude]
OK, Paul. That was better, until you revised your “checklist”.
I know you are striving for clarity, but in five bullet points you now have no less than three triple-negatives and one quadruple negative (the struck-out “shelves” point). And that’s counting “don’t need no” as only one negative. Three of the points start with “NO”, and all of the bullets are “X” which mean “No” or “Does not apply”. So ditch the homage to Sierra Madre/Blazing Saddles. Your readers already feel like that stupid cat, and your “checklist” made it worse.
What’s wrong with:
“You must have ADS-B/out to fly:
– inside Class A, B, or C
– inside Mode-C ring
– above Class C
– inside Class E at/above 10,000 msl unless within 2,500 agl”
You could re-cast the list by airspace letter:
“You must have ADS-B/out to fly:
– inside Class A
– inside Class B or its Mode-C ring
– inside and above Class C
– inside Class E at/above 10,000 msl unless within 2,500 agl”
Notice that I wrote “ADS-B/out” above. I have been equipped with ADS-B/_in_ for years, but that won’t get me access to “ADS-B Rules” airspace. I have no intention of equipping with ‘/out’ until the FAA provides me with an affordable means to prevent every yahoo with a cellphone from seeing my tail number heading to Oshkosh, picking up my address from the FAA website, and walking off with my priceless collection of AVweb gimmie-hats.
As to your “corrected” airspace graphic, check out the canonical FAA ADS-B image:
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace/media/airspaceRequirementsSm.jpg
In an attempt to depict the circularity of Class B&C airspace (why?) both of you render them in slight perspective as ovals. This serves no purpose whatsoever, but it does introduce a visual gap between the tops of Class B&C “Rules” airspace and the overlying Class E. THERE IS NO GAP. This is documented by the fine print, but who reads that when the whole point of a graphic is to make a complicated issue clear at a glance?
So when do you intend to address ADAPT? I used it to get out of a Class B on the first day of “Rules”. For a hack of old FAA software it wasn’t half bad, but it still requires training/explanation/simplification.
1) ADS-B is not required to get flight following outside of ADS-B required airspace.
2) ADS-B equipment is required to automatically go out of anonymous mode anytime you are squawking anything other than 1200. ATC radar controller will give you a non 1200 code to squawk when you request flight following.
3) In anonymous mode there is nothing in the ADS-B Transmission that identifies you however ATC still sees targets operating in anonymous mode and can track you to your landing site and perhaps identify you that way.
More info at “ADS-Bman.com.
Three more things (for a friend):
1. Is it a “must have” ADS-B/out to fly within Class D airspace and its Class D or E extensions within Mode C?
2. Non continuous airspace. Is ADS-B/out required in Class B (San Diego and Miramar as an example) or C airspace (i.e., KSNA, KRIV) during airspace off hours?
3. BTW, does anyone know if Mode C deactivates along the Class Bravo “non continuously” operational schedule?
And here are Larry’s technical questions (for a friend) that I can’t seem to get answers to:
With the advent and proliferation of portable dual band ADS-B ‘in’ boxes as the majority solution to get ADS-B ‘in’, I’m wondering exactly what happens with TIS-B sent up from ground stations IF you have activated your “hockey puck” piece of airspace around your airplane via your ADS-B ‘out’ signal. More specifically, I’m wondering if a tiny antenna inside a GDL5X or Stratus inside your airplane might miss a few squits depending on where it’s coming from relative to the receiving airplane’s ‘in’ box antenna’s location and IF there’s a duplication of traffic being sent up to me from FAA ground stations?
When I installed and programmed my GTX335 ‘out’ box, I told it to squit that I had ‘in’ capability. In effect, I’m squitting to FAA that I can somehow see TIS-B. So when a FAA ground station “sees” me, do they ASSUME that I can see ADS-B traffic in my vicinity DIRECTLY with my ‘in’ box (sniffer) OR do they also send up that data to me from the ground station? IF they do this, they’d be duplicating (with some amount of latency) what my ‘in’ box is or might be seeing directly from nearby traffic via its antenna. So how does the ‘in’ box deal with a duplication of signals — directly from the target and rebroadcast from the ground station — or does it even matter?
Secondly — for any ATC types out there — how does a “scope dope” know I’m equipped with the required ADS-B ‘out’ in Rule airspace and it meets the technical requirements (passes a PAPR). I know what a Mode A/C/S target looks like but don’t know what an ADS-B equipped target (1090 or UAT) looks like to a controller. I asked this of a military controller AND other ATC types at Airventure and got a deer in the headlights look from them. Assuming for a second that you’re squitting a correct ADS-B ‘out’ signal (you’re NOT a NPE and therefore determined to not be a player), how do ATC types know all of this.
This is some of the insidious nature of all this technology.
You are correct Larry.
Raf S.:
§91.225(b) has the phrase “unless otherwise authorized by ATC”, so in theory you can try to talk your way into any ADS-B Rules airspace while unequipped or inop. Absent that:
1. Yes. If you are inside a mode-C ring you must have /OUT. However, per JO7210.3, if your Class D airport “is approximately 25 NM or farther from a Class B airspace primary airport and is not served by a scheduled air carrier” it is considered a “fringe airport”. Use the “ADS-B Deviation Authorization Preflight Tool” https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/adapt/ to file for per-flight deviation authorizations.
2. Yes. §91.225 makes no reference to whether the Class B or C airspace is “active”. I’d contact SOCAL approach and turn on the charm.
3. See 2. I can find nothing in the FARs regarding mode-C requirements being effective only during airspace operational hours. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t something in a procedural document somewhere.
Southern California sure has some of the weirdest airspace in the country, though.
Chip, thanks for the information. I have a good understanding of the NAS and like to go into operational details beyond what’s published. A student asked me if he could do take offs and landings while remaining within the Class D inside of the 30nm Mode C Veil without ADS-B out. I don’t know. So, I’m searching for the reference that would define this.