FAA Loses Air Traffic Routing Suit

35

The FAA has been handed a court ruling that could affect the way it routes air traffic over populated areas all over the country. A determined group of residents of Burien, a Seattle suburb about two miles west of Sea-Tac Airport, recently won a lawsuit over an operational change that put dozens of turboprop regional aircraft on a narrow track over them at 3,000 feet and below. The route was created to get the slower propeller aircraft away from the airport as quickly as possible to squeeze in more jets. The judge in the case told the FAA to redesign the airspace with full consideration of the impact of future changes on the people below. 

The FAA is being sued by community groups all over the country as it changes long-established air traffic patterns with the implementation of NextGen technology. The agency needs to fit more aircraft into the same amount of airspace to accommodate future growth and the Burien turboprop route was an example of ways to accomplish that. In the case of Burien, the court ruled that the FAA failed to consider the impact on the neighbors in plans to increase capacity at Sea-Tac through a $4.5 billion airport expansion that the agency is partially funding. The FAA hasn’t commented on the ruling except to say it’s reviewing the decision.

Russ Niles
Russ Niles is Editor-in-Chief of AVweb. He has been a pilot for 30 years and joined AVweb 22 years ago. He and his wife Marni live in southern British Columbia where they also operate a small winery.

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35 COMMENTS

  1. Will there ever be a day when people are held accountable for their decision to move into a home that is close to an airport and guaranteed to have planes flying overhead? When do I get to sue them for an equally inane reason?

    • Do not assume that the complainers live near airports. I live in a small mountain town ‘surrounded’ by three airports (including Palm Springs Int’l) – each located around 20 – 30 miles away. I began noticing occasional contrails after they switched routes, but I’ve heard nothing from my house. On the other hand, I have friends within a five mile radius who are now constantly being annoyed by the sounds of passing jets (apparently, the result of curious geographic features in the area).

      I don’t know how valid their complaints are, but they sure as hell didn’t make a decision – at least 50 years ago – to “move into a home that is close to an airport”.

      [BTW, none of the flights in question connect to any of the three nearby ‘nearby’ airports.]

    • Whoever else wants to make excuses for this obvious collateral damage, mental and physical health destroying concept to make money at any cost to citizens peaceful lives, is definitely not living under it. As others have said, it is NOT limited to people “close” to the airport! I have been to meetings regarding this and ALL the people “close” to the airport all said they knew exactly what they were buying into, BUT NEXTGEN, has made unbearable conditions. There are people like myself, NOT CLOSE, to the airport, who bought a home on a low through traffic, next to schools property, with a bigger lot size, paying premium prices NOT TO ENDURE AIR TRAFFIC OR EVEN CAR TRAFFIC, and we MAYBE experienced 10 planes a day 10s of thousands of feet above us to the now NEXTGEN hell of 100+ planes A DAY, UNDER 5500 FEET. I HEAR EVERY PLANE UNDER 10000 feet in my home and I moved to a home with a bigger back yard to enjoy, that is now inundated with constant 65 – 85dbl traffic, making sitting outside a danger to my hearing and sanity! I did not move into NEXTGEN, NEXTGEN moved into me and is making sleep impossible affecting my employment and advancement in my employment, I’m always wearing earplugs and headphones making communication with my partner a problem causing strife, my home shakes all the time from the planes, when since 1971, it did not SHAKE AT ALL, and it is causing structural damage due to the movement of the foundation from the JETQUAKES, the stress of 3-5 hours sleep MAX for 4 years straight, not ONE DAY BREAK, has caused stress levels making carrying a child impossible, and ALL THIS TO LITTER THE SKIES WITH A CRAP LOAD OF PLANES FOR PROFIT! Yeah, if FAA TAKES SERIOUS CONSIDERATION OF THE CITIZENS BELOW IN THEIR path selection process, and is aware of all this kind of damaging living conditions caused by NEXTGEN, then they are aware of it, and don’t give a hoot about the demographics they ultimately choose to endure this air and noise polluting wrecking ball in the sky! THIS MESSAGE IS ONLY HALF OF WHAT ISSUES THIS TRULY CAUSING TO MYSELF AND MANY OTHER CITIZENS. People aren’t suing and attacking the FAA for a slight noise change. This is an environmental, health, property, and livelihood destroying concept. They changed the paths into concentrated, low, loud flying death traps but using the exact same noise allowances when people were experiencing little to no air traffic previous to Nextgen! 10 planes at 65dbl allowance is way less damaging than 100+ planes at 65dbl. I, as anyone else, would love a concept that improves air traffic efficiency, but not at such high costs to citizens who can’t get a dime from all the airline industries new found high profits at our expense, not going to ANY repairs or soundproofing assistance to make this at LEAST bearable. It’s not right, and FAA big wigs aren’t putting it over THEIR HOMES FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE INDUSTRY, THEY are sacrificing me and others who bought PEACE AND QUIET, then got thrust into a skyway of torture!

    • Mark, Before you blame people for living near an airport or an urban area you should know what is going on. I live over 20NM from an airport and not considered near but the part 150 rules. We never herd planes before they changed the routes and now planes are 1800ft-2000ft directly over our home at all hours. The FAA only informed communities 5-10 miles away of plans yet they have traffic this low as far as 30NM away. Does anyone consider this to be close? If that is the case, when are you far enough? I guess it would be when they get to your house.

  2. Congress was pushing the FAA for years to get NextGen on schedule and completed and then started criticizing some of the changes that were the result. They can’t have it both ways. Does no good to spend all this money on NextGen to make more efficient use of airspace and airports if local Congresspersons or the courts keep meddling. Remember the airlines got delay in the ADS-B WAAS source requirement. I’m sure the airlines will give Congress and the FAA an earful if the promised efficiencies promised with NextGen don’t happen before they have to spend the money to update their airplanes with systems that are for the most part duplicates of equipment already installed.

  3. As a former ATC kinda guy, I later worked as a staff/manager ATC person in the FAA plans and programs office at a large airport. In you wildest dreams you cannot imagine the depth to which considerations have to be give to the most minor route changes. I took a lengthy course at the FAA Academy regarding noise issues, visual concerns, and on and on. Each day at some point during the class I would say to myself, “They gotta be damn joking!!!” I assure you that the FAA takes route changes very seriously and does a great job of trying, trying to cause the least impact as possible. But, these airplanes have to go over someone sometime. If we collectively want more airplanes, it’s going to affect someone on the ground.

  4. For those who were too lazy or too intellectually challenged to understand the facts surrounding this issue, let me enlighten you. Several years ago, the FAA underhandedly and without any pubic input or comment had a provision inserted into legislation that allowed them make changes to air traffic routing paths without having to do any of the previous requirements such as environmental impact reviews, affected neighborhood involvement, noise effects along the new path, or any other criteria that might adversely impact everyday citizens. This is NOT a matter of choosing to live near an airport and then complaining about the noise. It’s about buying a home then having the FAA arbitrarily and capriciously change flight routings to “accommodate” NextGen and basically acting like Danny DeVito in Matilda, “The FAA is right, the public is wrong; they’re smart, we are not.” I am an instrument-rated private pilot who bought a home and now lives under the new flight path in/out of DCA. The noise level is terrible and despite meetings with them and our elected officials, the FAA has flat-out lied to me and my neighbors telling us they are “reviewing and addressing this issue,” yet they refuse to answer FOiA requests on the issue and decline any further meetings. This is why the FAA cannot be trusted – they are a government bureaucracy that proves once again that they will screw the American public to achieve their objectives. The FAA motto is alive and well: The FAA is not happy until the American public is not happy. Sadly, with this comment I will undoubtedly have to prep for my inevitable ramp check by the FSDO.

    • Kirk, please read Fill’s post directly below yours as I write this. He makes a solid set of points. One of the best is about the train stopping the meeting for a bit. Trains, planes, highways, school ballparks, playgrounds, solar farms, it matters not what the venue is, people will find a reason to holler and wail. Yes, locally a small group were screaming loudly about the projected noise level of a proposed field of solar panels. Solar panels…
      Now, consider the personal case you laid out. You are an instrument rated private pilot, live and presumably work in the DCA area. You bought a house close enough to DCA for potential traffic routing to be a noise issue for you. Well, I ask, weren’t you thinking when you bought? You purchased a high cost home in an overcrowded area for your own convenience. I have several friends that live in the DCA area and they either pay to live close to work or they pay to live away and suffer the road traffic. For the record, I live under the normal downwind for KWRI right at the left turn to instrument base point. When KPHL gets backed up, long right base is just west of the house. I do not hear those aircraft unless I want to anymore.
      Sorry if this hurts your feelings but you sound like the folks living near the NJ Turnpike that wailed to the heavens about the added noise level when the roadway was widened to 6 lanes over more than half its’ length to accommodate traffic levels. Also, your comments indicate a strong anti-FAA bias. Well, I offer you the advice of hiring on with them, they are desperate for experienced people. Fix the problem from the inside, but remember where you came from and why you signed up.

      • David, I read your comments as well as Fill’s you both comment without knowing how far a person is from the airport. Many people I know are 30-40 miles away from the airport where you would not expect to hear planes 2000ft overhead. No, most did not move near an airport, the FAA lowered and changed the routes. As far as the anti FAA bias, they earned it themselves with no notice and not telling the truth. In my case, I complained about low planes, the regional administrator said all planes for my area were at least 4000ft. I showed a breakdown from the port authority (they get the info from the FAA) that showed 50% were between 1500-3000ft (Below the Class B Floor) the bulk at 2000ft. Then administrator had to admit “some” were below the Class B floor but it was not standard. I showed another breakdown where no planes were above the floor for a period of several days. They ended the conversation with “sucks to be you attitiude” and no willingness to resolve this. I Know some people in the FAA try to do a good job but I have lost all respect for the management there.

  5. When are people going to realize that living in an urban area means noise? If you go to ANY urban area there are not only aircraft but everything else. I recall a “noise abatement” meeting where complainers were meeting with pols to bitch about turboprop noise and in the middle of the meeting a train went by and shut everyone up because it was so loud. I am from a rural area. We have one chap who lives a mile on final of the dominant runway for the local airport. Not a joke, he complains about noise. At another airport I am familiar with you would think a county of a million people were ready to riot over turboprops but the real data show 98% of the complaints come from about a dozen people who watch Flightaware for tail numbers and will file complaints even when they’re away on travel, and one of them is a retired airline captain!

    No matter where you are there is going to be noise. If for nothing your neighbor’s cows are going to bellow or the coyotes are going to howl or heaven forbid the wind is going to blow. Or a motorcycle with no muffler is going to go by. Urban areas are exactly that, urban. It’s time we started getting real about what it means to be in urban areas and accept the noise and disregard the NIMBYs.

    I think FAA does one hell of a good job pushing tin and trying to make everything work. They’re one example of an agency that actually provides or tries to provide a vital service. I’d like to see some of the NIMBYs step up to the plate and try to solve the problems FAA has.

    It’s high time we stopped letting a few complainers dominate the dialog. The squeaky wheel doesn’t get greased around here. It gets its bearings replaced.

  6. The FAA should no longer allow dozens of turboprop regional aircraft over that that area, per the lawsuit.
    Start routing the jets over that neighborhood instead.

  7. Well, interesting mix of points of view here. The range goes from the standard NIMBY! to why do they buy near the airport. DCA and SEA-TAC have been where they are for a very long time. I am sorry, but if you buy withing two miles of there, noise is an issue. Ditto for the vt Pilot posting above. If you are so close to the airport that departing aircraft are a noise issue, why did you buy there?
    Another example is KDIA (Denver in case I got my ICAO wrong). Stapleton was jammed up against the city and had no room to grow. They built the new airport about a day’s trek from town (it seems when on the shuttle bus). There wasn’t anyone near enough to even see the traffic let alone hear it but now “town” is encroaching the airport from the west. Not saying that is good or bad as long as they consistently tell any noise whiners to shut up and soldier on.
    As to Sea-Tac, well, liberal judges abound on the left coast and the 9th Circuit is slowly being updated to a more moderate tone. I am sure the FAA will appeal so this issue isn’t dead yet. The key here is “two miles” from the field.

    • Yep, we have a NIMBY problem here in NJ too. Theres a group of people who live in Bucks County PA (and some from Mercer County, NJ) who are protesting Trenton Mercer Airport most of them live around 2 miles away from the runway. TTN has had commerical service since the 80s, admittedly with breaks lots of airlines have tried to make it work but haven’t been able to. Then Frontier moved in 6 years ago and has been there ever since. They even scared off Southwest Airlines when they wanted to update the old outdated terminal from the 70s so they could start service. They live between the 1st and 8th most populated metro areas in the county and they act like they had no clue that in the future there might be more commerical service in the future. They constantly lie and twist facts to suit their needs and fear monger people to think a plane is going to fall out of the sky at any minute and that a 4 gate terminal is going to turn into LaGuardia or Newark. They value their closeness to Philadephia and New York but claim they live in the country. A set of them live with their homes backing up to a field that houses the ILS system. So close that they were offered to have the county buy their homes to improve the Runway Protection Zone (RPZ).

  8. The people who are supportive deny the issue, but those same people don’t want the paths moved. If the issue doesn’t exist, all of you supporters should request the palates over you and then support it all the way!!! Whoever else wants to make excuses for this obvious collateral damage, mental and physical health destroying concept to make money at any cost to citizens peaceful lives, is definitely not living under it. As others have said, it is NOT limited to people “close” to the airport! I have been to meetings regarding this and ALL the people “close” to the airport all said they knew exactly what they were buying into, BUT NEXTGEN, has made unbearable conditions. There are people like myself, NOT CLOSE, to the airport, who bought a home on a low through traffic, next to schools property, with a bigger lot size, paying premium prices NOT TO ENDURE AIR TRAFFIC OR EVEN CAR TRAFFIC, and we MAYBE experienced 10 planes a day 10s of thousands of feet above us to the now NEXTGEN hell of 100+ planes A DAY, UNDER 5500 FEET. I HEAR EVERY PLANE UNDER 10000 feet in my home and I moved to a home with a bigger back yard to enjoy, that is now inundated with constant 65 – 85dbl traffic, making sitting outside a danger to my hearing and sanity! I did not move into NEXTGEN, NEXTGEN moved into me and is making sleep impossible affecting my employment and advancement in my employment, I’m always wearing earplugs and headphones making communication with my partner a problem causing strife, my home shakes all the time from the planes, when since 1971, it did not SHAKE AT ALL, and it is causing structural damage due to the movement of the foundation from the JETQUAKES, the stress of 3-5 hours sleep MAX for 4 years straight, not ONE DAY BREAK, has caused stress levels making carrying a child impossible, and ALL THIS TO LITTER THE SKIES WITH A CRAP LOAD OF PLANES FOR PROFIT! Yeah, if FAA TAKES SERIOUS CONSIDERATION OF THE CITIZENS BELOW IN THEIR path selection process, and is aware of all this kind of damaging living conditions caused by NEXTGEN, then they are aware of it, and don’t give a hoot about the demographics they ultimately choose to endure this air and noise polluting wrecking ball in the sky! THIS MESSAGE IS ONLY HALF OF WHAT ISSUES THIS TRULY CAUSING TO MYSELF AND MANY OTHER CITIZENS. People aren’t suing and attacking the FAA for a slight noise change. This is an environmental, health, property, and livelihood destroying concept. They changed the paths into concentrated, low, loud flying death traps but using the exact same noise allowances when people were experiencing little to no air traffic previous to Nextgen! 10 planes at 65dbl allowance is way less damaging than 100+ planes at 65dbl. I, as anyone else, would love a concept that improves air traffic efficiency, but not at such high costs to citizens who can’t get a dime from all the airline industries new found high profits at our expense, not going to ANY repairs or soundproofing assistance to make this at LEAST bearable. It’s not right, and FAA big wigs aren’t putting it over THEIR HOMES FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE INDUSTRY, THEY are sacrificing me and others who bought PEACE AND QUIET, then got thrust into a skyway of torture!

  9. The people who are supportive deny the issue, but those same people don’t want the paths moved. If the issue doesn’t exist, all of you supporters should request the palates over you and then support it all the way!!! Whoever else wants to make excuses for this obvious collateral damage, mental and physical health destroying concept to make money at any cost to citizens peaceful lives, is definitely not living under it. As others have said, it is NOT limited to people “close” to the airport! ALL the people “close” to the airport all said they knew exactly what they were buying into, BUT NEXTGEN, has made unbearable conditions. There are people like myself, NOT CLOSE, to the airport, who bought a home on a low through traffic, next to schools property, with a bigger lot size, paying premium prices NOT TO ENDURE AIR TRAFFIC OR EVEN CAR TRAFFIC, and we MAYBE experienced 10 planes a day 10s of thousands of feet above us to the now NEXTGEN hell of 100+ planes A DAY, UNDER 5500 FEET. I HEAR EVERY PLANE UNDER 10000 feet in my home and I moved to a home with a bigger back yard to enjoy, that is now inundated with constant 65 – 85dbl traffic, making sitting outside a danger to my hearing and sanity! I did not move into NEXTGEN, NEXTGEN moved into me and is making sleep impossible affecting my employment and advancement in my employment, I’m always wearing earplugs and headphones making communication with my partner a problem causing strife, my home shakes all the time from the planes, when since 1971, it did not SHAKE AT ALL, and it is causing structural damage due to the movement of the foundation from the JETQUAKES, the stress of 3-5 hours sleep MAX for 4 years straight, not ONE DAY BREAK, has caused stress levels making carrying a child impossible, and ALL THIS TO LITTER THE SKIES WITH A CRAP LOAD OF PLANES FOR PROFIT! Yeah, if FAA TAKES SERIOUS CONSIDERATION OF THE CITIZENS BELOW IN THEIR path selection process, and is aware of all this kind of damaging living conditions caused by NEXTGEN, then they are aware of it, and don’t give a hoot about the demographics they ultimately choose to endure this air and noise polluting wrecking ball in the sky! THIS MESSAGE IS ONLY HALF OF WHAT ISSUES THIS TRULY CAUSING TO MYSELF AND MANY OTHER CITIZENS. People aren’t suing and attacking the FAA for a slight noise change. This is an environmental, health, property, and livelihood destroying concept. They changed the paths into concentrated, low, loud flying death traps but using the exact same noise allowances when people were experiencing little to no air traffic previous to Nextgen! 10 planes at 65dbl allowance is way less damaging than 100+ planes at 65dbl. I, as anyone else, would love a concept that improves air traffic efficiency, but not at such high costs to citizens who can’t get a dime from all the airline industries new found high profits at our expense, not going to ANY repairs or soundproofing assistance to make this at LEAST bearable. It’s not right, and FAA big wigs aren’t putting it over THEIR HOMES FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE INDUSTRY, THEY are sacrificing me and others who bought PEACE AND QUIET, then got thrust into a skyway of torture!

  10. The people who are supportive deny the issue, but those same people don’t want the paths moved. If the issue doesn’t exist, all of you supporters should request the palates over you and then support it all the way!!! Whoever else wants to make excuses for this obvious collateral damage, mental and physical health destroying concept to make money at any cost to citizens peaceful lives, is definitely not living under it. As others have said, it is NOT limited to people “close” to the airport! ALL the people “close” to the airport all said they knew exactly what they were buying into, BUT NEXTGEN, has made unbearable conditions. There are people like myself, NOT CLOSE, to the airport, who bought a home on a low through traffic, next to schools property, with a bigger lot size, paying premium prices NOT TO ENDURE AIR TRAFFIC OR EVEN CAR TRAFFIC, and we MAYBE experienced 10 planes a day 10s of thousands of feet above us to the now NEXTGEN hell of 100+ planes A DAY, UNDER 5500 FEET. I HEAR EVERY PLANE UNDER 10000 feet in my home and I moved to a home with a bigger back yard to enjoy, that is now inundated with constant 65 – 85dbl traffic, making sitting outside a danger to my hearing and sanity! I did not move into NEXTGEN, NEXTGEN moved into me and is making sleep impossible affecting my employment and advancement in my employment, I’m always wearing earplugs and headphones making communication with my partner a problem causing strife, my home shakes all the time from the planes, when since 1971, it did not SHAKE AT ALL, and it is causing structural damage due to the movement of the foundation from the JETQUAKES, the stress of 3-5 hours sleep MAX for 4 years straight, not ONE DAY BREAK, has caused stress levels making carrying a child impossible, and ALL THIS TO LITTER THE SKIES WITH A CRAP LOAD OF PLANES FOR PROFIT! Yeah, if FAA TAKES SERIOUS CONSIDERATION OF THE CITIZENS BELOW IN THEIR path selection process, and is aware of all this kind of damaging living conditions caused by NEXTGEN, then they are aware of it, and don’t give a hoot about the demographics they ultimately choose to endure this air and noise polluting wrecking ball in the sky! THIS MESSAGE IS ONLY HALF OF WHAT ISSUES THIS TRULY CAUSING TO MYSELF AND MANY OTHER CITIZENS. People aren’t suing and attacking the FAA for a slight noise change. This is an environmental, health, property, and livelihood destroying concept. They changed the paths into concentrated, low, loud flying death traps but using the exact same noise allowances when people were experiencing little to no air traffic previous to Nextgen! 10 planes at 65dbl allowance is way less damaging than 100+ planes at 65dbl. I, as anyone else, would love a concept that improves air traffic efficiency, but not at such high costs to citizens who can’t get a dime from all the airline industries new found high profits at our expense, not going to ANY repairs or soundproofing assistance to make this at LEAST bearable. It’s not right, and FAA big wigs aren’t putting it over THEIR HOMES FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE INDUSTRY, THEY are sacrificing me and others who bought PEACE AND QUIET, then got thrust into a skyway of torture! And why are changes soooo difficult when I see some paths citizens have requested, used more often to disperse the traffic. IF NEXTGEN was a total danger in the SKY or execs pockets, you are telling me they had NO EMERGENCY REVERSION PLAN for further assessment in place? That would be completely irresponsible I would think! That is why I get so frustrated with their lag time with changes when I TRULY believe they had something in place to “revert like” if the issue was a fail or issue FOR THEM! FAA seems to be only concerned about the Airlines and not citizens!

  11. Ok. If your community airport authority allows the various airline companies to either add a new company to the airport or continue to allow the existing companies to increase the number of flight , please explain to me exactly what the FAA should be doing with all these extra planes? They MUST fly over someone if your airport authority is permitting them to operate. The FAA’s first priority is to insure that these additional flight, mixed in with the already existing flights operate safely. Having been an FAAer for 34 years, I’m going to say that the FAA takes that responsibility very seriously. Then next, noise and environmental considerations are extremely important too. And insuring the efficiency of all the operations is very important too. So, those of you that don’t want an airplane flying near you, please tell me exactly whos house should they fly over…and keep in mind that this decision by you MUST insure that this route can be flown safely. How about a little help here. Or….how about being a community leader and stop the authority from expanding the airport operations. What is the answer other than you don’t want them over your house. Having been involved in noise issues planning, it becomes a giant compromise, nothing can be perfect for everyone.

    • I am aware of all this. I focused on the FAA part. Everyone is pointing fingers at everyone else, confusing the communities who just know it is worse and has changed while we are continuously told the data doesn’t support our pain. Stay at the houses with the most complaints. It is understandable and warranted.

    • We tried to stop the airport expansion. I am not in an area where they are not fighting, making suggestions, asking the right questions and the right people, and we still are not seeing change. FAA is making collateral damage decisions that supporters are happy about. Not me and I get to benefit, works for me. And it is not just “not making everyone happy,” it is about making people extremely miserable and destroyed while others see great change for the better. There is not even a CLOSE balance, just extremes.

  12. Wait a minute everyone…(especially Tawana L.)

    All I read is the bad bad FAA being blamed for all the sins of aviation. No matter where you live there will be noise from airplanes in our modern society. I have seen this complaint for years, but seemingly in the real world hardly anything gets done due to the diversity of the types of aircraft we have available to us. What I mean is the various parts of the Federal Register you are talking about, such as Part 91, 135, and especially Part 121.

    Does anyone outside of the aviation community understand and offer suggestions to make these departures (in particular) more viable? I don’t see it. All they do is complain about their own physical problems, and they always seem to be the same. I know they need mental help as I have seen them complain at community meetings for a lot of years. Grow up you people. Make your needed adjustments in both mental and lifestyle commitments, and yeah, I know it’s not easy, but “Just Do It.”

    I just went to a NexGen meeting and I do believe these aviation people will try their very best to accommodate the local people as best as possible. You, that complain MUST try to understand and try to give them the input they need to make changes. Work with them thru your available resources, and there are lots of choices. Aviation will continue to grow, as we see, so who’s fault is it that people want to use aviation to get where they need to go rather than by train or bus or whatever other transportation is available. Complaining about (e.g.) local small and regional airports but not making a small commitment of your time doesn’t work. Aviation is NOT GOING AWAY, in any form, so try to help instead of you always complaining.

    I’m tired of it!

    • As I said, the ones who support it the most don’t tequest it moved over them, just condemn the comments of sufferers. All responses after my comment were exactly as I expected. No one said, they want it, “it has to fly over someone.” Again he complaint is the the lack of assistance programs, maintaining allowances that do not support the new HUGE INCREASE OF FLIGHTS, over homes that never had an issue, etc….as I stated in my message and as everyone ignored the issues and are hellbent on their own points, the reason why so many people suffer without support of their neighbor. “As long as it’s not me, I don’t see the problem.”

      • Sufferers?
        As a pilot, I still look up at all traffic when it flys over my house!
        The only thing that suffers when I do that is my yard work.

        It’s not altitude, it’s attitude.
        Change your perspective and the world will be a joy rather than a concern.

  13. Tawanda L:

    You said;

    “Again he complaint is the the lack of assistance programs, maintaining allowances that do not support the new HUGE INCREASE OF FLIGHTS, over homes that never had an issue, etc…”

    I say;
    “How is it that all these (Part 121, commercial aircraft) are always full, with every seat taken?”
    ” Why are there (as you say, “HUGE INCREASE IN FLIGHTS.”

    Is it because the airlines and the FAA are trying to accommodate the public with obvious insatiable desire to fly rather than use any other form of transportation? Go ahead, blame the public, I dare you! If “they” wanted to satisfy you, yes you…they would roll over and choose those other forms of transportation, but they are not doing that.

    Is it my “point,” yes. I say that because it is something you are mad at particularly the American people, (as well as foreign traffic) and you don’t like them, any of them, using the air as transportation.

    Now, as to Part 91 and Part 135 aviation, you know, the people who want to learn to fly and the small air operations the run in the business community, how do you slow down that type of aviation (?), you don’t. If you think you want to live in a modern society and have modern conveniences you are forced to live in it. Like it or not, sorry to say, really sorry…but DEAL WITH IT. I don’t care if you or the airport was there first, BUT IN MY CASE WE SIGNED A DOCUMENT STATING THERE IS AN AIRPORT NEARBY AND THERE WILL POTENTIAL GROWTH. And I moved to a desert community where the airport was a “backwater, middle of the desert place” and now it is a modern facility with all the updates for mostly General Aviation travel for us to use.

    I hope this will try to help you, and others to understand. Maybe they need to get a life and think of the others who while they complain, will at the drop of a hat, make that flight because of THEIR NEED to get somewhere quickly. They won’t choose to use any other form of transportation. ;0)

  14. I am told to grow up, get over it, etc….by Martin. Never said I was mad, I said…I did not move into NEXTGEN, NEXTGEN moved into me and is making sleep impossible affecting my employment and advancement in my employment, I’m always wearing earplugs and headphones making communication with my partner a problem causing strife, my home shakes all the time from the planes, when since 1971, it did not SHAKE AT ALL, and it is causing structural damage due to the movement of the foundation from the JETQUAKES, the stress of 3-5 hours sleep MAX for 4 years straight, not ONE DAY BREAK, has caused stress levels making carrying a child impossible….all I wanted was to serve my time as a vet, use my loan on a house, work hard, play hard, make a family, live the American Dream….telling me to give over NOT sleeping and stress causing loss of a child makes YOU SOUND ANGRY and cruel. You are what is wrong in this “modern” society. Wish me luck on the next pregnancy, kind sir.

  15. It’s an old story that you can’t even blame on lawyers. A town sets aside rural property for an airport, far enough away from the town to let the babies sleep. The property values (low) don’t move until the town runs power, sewer and roads to the airport. The town then begins to drift towards the airport to cash in on the low land prices and the new utilities. Zoning boards don’t turn away tax revenue and houses, stores appear. As the town grows, newer and bigger planes show up. The runway is lengthened, a VOR is installed, more T-hangars are built, etc., etc. The townspeople don’t seem to understand the disconnect. They borrow state money to build a college. More business, more aircraft, more noise. The college offers flight training. More flying machines. If you live close to an airport, you will hear airplanes. It it’s inside Class B or C airspace and the noise is too much, it’s time to consider a move. You are the tail wanting to wag the noisy dog. There is no right, wrong, fair or unfair. Blaming the FAA for the growth of aviation is like blaming steel refiners for supplying stock to make gun barrels.

  16. Courts in some jurisdictions are having less and less sympathy for people who by their own choice move close to an airport. I wonder how many of these complainers fly out of these same airports.

    When people go to book an airline trip guess what is well known to be the first consideration of most airline customers? Price, price, and price. Most if any never think of the noise factor their booked flight will make. Or even how much noise that particular airplane makes. How do you think some of these “low cost” airlines get their start. What was AirTran(Valuejet) got its start flying older “stage 2” DC9s. Allegiant airlines got its start flying older MD80s. Most if not all of those customers flew on those planes because of the cheaper fare. My guess is that those passengers along with other “low cost” airlines couldn’t care less about the noise level as long as the fare was cheap.

    Just think of how our congested urban areas would survive without overnight package delivery. Or how about fixed and rotary wing air ambulance operations. For the most part patients don’t pick the middle of the night to get seriously injured or ill. I could go on and on about how our lives have improved due to “noisy aviation”. If you want quiet, moving to New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, many other crowded cities isn’t it.

    BTW, I used to live in an apartment directly under the approach/departure path of a runway about 3 miles from that airline served airport. I worked third shift at that time and never had any trouble sleeping during the day with that airplane noise going on all day. Did that for about 6 years before changing careers and I moved even closer to that airport.

  17. Tawanda L – you might want to refine your facts some. First, what do you mean by “NOT CLOSE”? How many miles? Problem is your complaint as it stands doesn’t make a lot of sense.

    65 db is the sound level of a car passing by in the street, 70 feet away. I just measured it in front of my house. 85 db is getting significantly loud, but I doubt an airliner is anywhere near that loud at 5000 ft, even on climbout. Not in a position to measure it at present, unfortunately. I did watch a couple of airliners depart out of Boston on Flightradar24, and they reached 5000 ft at 6 miles out. But shaking the house? Structural damage? I’m not buying it, unless you actually live a half mile off the departure end of the runway. I live under the arrival routes to Hanscom in Bedford (KBED) and the bizjets come over well below 3000. Their engine noise is drowned out by the passing traffic in the street. (I live on the outskirts of a small town, BTW.)

    What I’m getting at is, aside from military operating areas, the only place you’re going to find airplane noise most people consider objectionable is near an airport. I understand there’s a class of people who can’t stand to hear an airplane, period. We have some a few miles away who maintain a web site with their “evidence”. Stuff like shaky blurry videos of light planes taken with really long telephoto lenses, where the engine noise is periodically drowned out by the sound of birds chirping nearby. I can’t offer a lot of help here. Moving sufficiently far from civilization will just lower the overall background noise to the level where even airliners in cruise at 35,000 ft will be audible. Not loud, just audible.

  18. Years ago, when sitting among a panel of “experts” about the expansion of a certain European airport, people made some of the most outlandish claims in order to get decision-makers to listen to them. We had a Psychologist present during one of the meetings who explained that people who genuinely dislike or even hate something (or take chronic offense to it) will experience the pure presence of a picture of such (insert item of concern) as causing noise in their head and psychological distress. Its basically like showing a picture of Trump and Impeachment to a Democrat or mentioning Nancy Pelosi’s and Polident to a Republican. Foam instantly appears before the mouth, profanities exit the cake-hole, things go rapidly downhill. Whenever we loose objectivity, we fail as a society. Eventually the atmosphere implodes and peaceful life of planet earth falls victim to pure and unfiltered anger.

    When my neighbors developmentally and psychologically challenged kids decided to terrorize the neighborhood this summer, I opted to put my active noise cancelling earphones on, streaming the kind of music I like, while typing away at the work I had to complete. Every single time I had to take the damn muffs off my ears, I remembered that government mandated condoms would make lots of sense – before mumbling that people should have to get a license prior to procreating anyways. I know it would never happen, so instead of launching little nasty ambushes on children and their oh so loving and understanding producers, I decided to invest in more noise cancelling equipment. It pays, I never heard the neighbors bugger crash through his trampoline and neither did the noise of the emergency vehicle affect my peace and tranquility when another neighbors deranged offspring smashed through a glass door.

    The FAA has a mandate. It spells out as written in the article above: “The agency needs to fit more aircraft into the same amount of airspace to accommodate future growth”. What a simple concept, utterly factual and true to the bone! DOH, how simple!

    Dear Tawanda L.: I am sure a number of FAA employees attentively read and comprehend the various articles and blogs on AVweb.com. I’d be willing to bet some of them understand your frustration and maybe even agree with it. I am not so sure that raising personal concerns and issues you have in your TRANQUIL and QUIET neighborhood will transfer into regulatory decision-making. I derive this hunch (unscientifically) from my own set of alternative facts. Your desired remedy will likely be dependent upon successful litigation against the government, not by venting your frustrations with this issue on websites, which feature primarily aviation news. This is not how regulations are made or changed.

    Let me assure you, none of the pilots flying over or close to your house is your personal enemy and none of them has a set goal in life to destroy your life or affect you negatively. None of the controllers in any of the various offices around the country are on a dedicated mission to make YOUR or anyone’s life miserable. Even though it probably feels like it for you, none of the commenters here is trying to make you feel bad or tell you to get over it. People may, after all tell you to “deal with it”. Just like millions of other Americans and citizens of the world have to deal with perceived injustice and bias and find their way to peace in a growing and increasingly indifferent and ignorant society.

    When and if you adopt this line of thinking as your own, you will find the right avenue to raise your concerns and you will manage to make your point without all-caps words and sentences and without the excessive use of exclamation points and certainly, your credibility will improve when and if you stop accusing pro-aviation people of being anti- Tawanda. Its then – and probably not a minute before – that people in the right places may pay attention to what you say and attempt their level best to work with you.

  19. Jetquakes? LMAO Structural damage? ROFLMFAO
    Cue in the clueless meme…

    This is quite laughable…you build/buy a house near the airport and now you’re annoyed.

    This will be overturned and/or ignored.

  20. A fellow pilot friend of mine used to live slightly more than 5 nautical miles from CVG, and when certain airliners flew certain patterns, you had to stop talking, as you were drowned out. I know that certain short routes (from Cincinnati to Lexington) may never go higher than 4K or so. So there is real noise.
    No, it doesn’t bother me; I’m thinking of retiring to an airpark. And most of the housing south of CVG, and other large airports, is much newer than the airport itself; one would hope some research was done.

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