A California airline pilot who is a member of the Federal Flight Deck Officer program has been indicted for allegedly threatening to shoot his captain for diverting a flight for a medical emergency. The Associated Press said the Transportation Department’s Office of Inspector General confirmed Jonathan J. Dunn, who has received training to carry a loaded pistol while on the flight deck, is charged with interference with flight crew for the incident, which happened in August of 2022. He will be arraigned in Utah on Nov. 16.
The OIG is not saying exactly where the alleged incident occurred or for what airline Dunn was flying but did confirm it was a commercial airline flight. “After a disagreement about a potential flight diversion due to a passenger medical event, Dunn told the Captain they would be shot multiple times if the Captain diverted the flight,” the inspector general’s office told AP in an email statement. The indictment itself alleges Dunn “did use a dangerous weapon in assaulting and intimidating the crew member.” The indictment doesn’t name the airline, either.
This is an example of BAD crew resource management.
I don’t know, lot’s of jokes are on the flight deck; some appropriate, some apparently not.
Your comments never cease to amaze.
Wait for the CVR before believing an AP story.
Well, the arraignment is Nov. 16. We should know more then.
I’d love to call you an idiot, but my parents always told me not to attack the person. Your comment however is idiotic.
Having doubts about a hearsay story that neither AP nor Avweb has actually investigated is called healthy skepticism.
Other people’s comments about “see, we need to stop this program!” are the ones that are idiotic (adj. showing lack of thought, senseless, ignorant).
AP saw the indictment and quoted the OIG. We’ve been looking into it.
Thanks! I don’t know anything yet so that’s why I’m waiting to hear more. Gun stories always seem to always be the least factual when they are initially reported.
And he could use refresher course on transfer of control.
Translation: the skank waiting for me in ________ is more important that the guy having a heart attack in 23D…
Yep. Or, theres an warrant for my arrest in _________
And tell me again who thought that having a loaded gun on the flight deck (or ANYWHERE on a plane) is a good idea? I don’t care what “training” a person has had to be considered responsible enough to be able to carry one, people sometimes snap. And in my opinion, federal air marshals are no different (has there ever been a case where a federal air marshal having a weapon on the airplane has saved lives? I honestly am curious and don’t know). Keeping weapons nowhere near an aircraft is, to me, the only way to prevent this sort of thing from happening. And don’t say that without a weapon on the flight deck, they are powerless to protect themselves against a passenger who brings one on – there should be adequate security to ensure passengers aren’t bringing them on the first place!!
In my opinion, an armed pilot is just window dressing. A thoughtfully planned event could expose the entire aircraft to more threats than just an armored locked cockpit door. Also, so far, armed pilots have created a number of security threats. Many crew members are not at all amused with armed colleagues in the aircraft.
“Many crew members are not at all amused with armed colleagues in the aircraft.”
Yet, others are very thankful for a pilot who is willing to complete the rigorous initial and ongoing recurrent training required to maintain the qualification, all on his or her own time – and dime, with no monetary benefit. Ever.
Mauro and dan@syz, I strongly encourage you, if you ever get the chance, to sit down with an FFDO to discuss and get educated on the program. Of course there are facets that can’t be disclosed, but the program has been a resounding success, by any metric.
Clueless, party of two, your table is ready. Smh.
Former FO Jonathan J. Dunn was authorized to carry a firearm on the flight deck as part of the post 9/11 security program. If you were around when 9-11-01 occurred, you might understand FFDO creation along with strengthened cockpit partition and door. Federal air marshals (authorized to carry weapons) were added to assure the US air travel system has enhanced safety. Air marshals are the plain clothed cops riding shotgun on random flights. TSA was created to filter threats from weapons, chemical/biohazards, improvised devices that can be used as weapons, etc. Initial search doesn’t reveal whether the scheduled flight was diverted or not from this incident. Dunn may be the exception to the rule of passing muster to qualify for FFDO status along with recurrent training. Like the jump seat pilot going nuts and stopped by crew, there will always be exceptions slipping thru screening procedures with 99.999% accepting and maintaining discipline in their chosen positions.
Remember the old saying “if guns are outlawed, only the outlaws will have guns”.
Also: “an armed society is a polite society”
This, if everybody’s packing, nobody draws, lest they become Swiss cheese.
Years ago, my wife worked near a strip mall that had a gun store in it. Arizona did that back then. Some Darwin-award-hopeful walked past a police cruiser, into the store and announced his intent to rob the place, drawing his gun. Neglecting to consider that the officer and any customers might be packing. 20+ rounds later he resembled said cheese, everyone else holstered their weapons and started filling out paperwork.
I don’t know if he made the Darwin award or not.
I’d guess that the people who were on the following flights might have approved –
American Airlines Flight 11
American Airlines Flight 77
United Airlines Flight 93
United Airlines Flight 175
“And don’t say that without a weapon on the flight deck, they are powerless to protect themselves against a passenger who brings one on”
Hear, hear.
I volunteer Dan for the next hand to hand confrontation of the unruly passenger with a box cutter or, even a salad fork. His bravery and prowess will be handed down in song throughout the ages.
Another example of the loss of conflict resolution skills in the American Culture.
He no longer works for Delta.
Once again mental instability has invaded the flight deck…
Mental illness in pilots + guns in the cockpit. Sounds like a potentially volatile mix.
Don’t forget a mentally unstable crew member on mushrooms in the jump seat
The German Wings FO didn’t need access to a weapon, did he?
That program should be cancelled.
What do you know about the program? Anything?
I strongly encourage you, if you ever get the chance, to sit down with an FFDO to discuss and get educated on the program. Of course there are facets that can’t be disclosed, but the program has been a resounding success, by any metric.
Success in what way? Has an FFDO and ever intervened in a way any other crew member could not?
My understanding is that since 9/11, the passengers themselves have stopped every attempt to bring a plane down. No armed personnel needed.
Has there been a 9/11 style coordinated attack against the flight deck since 9/11?
I suppose one could argue the greatest value in the program is that it has deterred any attempt of that type, but that’s just conjecture.
Do you realize there are a significant number of airline flights dispatched in this country every single day with one or more armed individuals on board, including passengers?
Without going into specifics, I can assure you the threat of a flight deck attack remains significant, probably more-so in light of recent events. If given the choice of being a passenger on a US based airline crewed with or without an FFDO, I’d choose the FFDO crewed plane, without reservation, every single time. Preferably, both pilots (and passengers too). I welcome the extra level of security. But, that’s just me.
I doubt I’ll convince anyone on this forum who knows nothing about the FFDO program of the value it brings, especially if their mind is already made up that guns on planes are bad. And that’s okay.
Yes
That name does not return in an airman registry search. Either that is an error or the FAA has removed his record.
Took me less than a minute to find a Jonathan Joseph Dunn, ATP A/A-320 A/B-757 A/B-767 A/BE-300 A/DC-9
Yep
Whatever the merits of a program that puts guns on airplanes (How many? One? Two to disarm One? Three to break a tie?) the psychological screening required to be admitted into it needs some rethinking.
I’ll try to apply some logic here.
Do you agree that a pilot doesn’t need a weapon of any kind to adversely affect the outcome of a flight?
Would you (have you) ever flown on an airline with a pilot that you wouldn’t trust to deliver you safely to your destination? If that pilot was carrying a gun, would that change your answer?
Every time you board a flight, understand that that (those) pilot(s) control your destiny, armed or not. Does that factor into your decision to fly?
I would say if it does, you should probably seek other forms of transportation.
And the anser is… the entire airline system is TRUST based. I’m sure many of us recall the Alaska Airlines flight that crashed off California’s coast because a mechanic failed to properly lube the stabilator in a recent major maintenance faux-pas. Whether pilot, ATC, mechanic, or maufacturer … death awaits the passengers and crew if the chain of continuous, ongoing TRUST is broken.
With the fortress flight deck we likely have no compelling need for the FFDO program, but DO need either remote piloting capability (or on board AI that monitors the pilots in real tome…). But… what if there’s a software glitch, or some evil empire wanna be cracks the cypher that allows human pilots to be over ridden & locked out of the fly-by-wire controls?? Darn!!! No simple solutions to catching the one wacko pilot in hundreds of thousands on the flight deck.
Ned S’s comments are spot on.
The cold, brutal fact is that you will NEVER make air travel 100% safe. Air travel has become so commonplace that we forget there is always danger, by either mechanical or human means. We try, but there is always a glitch. The sick, evil mind of some will always find a way to circumvent the safeties.
Could this be the same Jonathan Dunn?
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/supreme-court-rejects-appeal-airman-facing-punishment-refusal-covid-19-vaccine
“And tell me again who thought that having a loaded gun on the flight deck (or ANYWHERE on a plane) is a good idea?”
So, if you were on an airplane and hijackers were trying to gain entry into the flight deck would your thoughts be “I sure hope that the pilots aren’t armed”?
The deterrent effect of the thousands of FFDOs onboard aircraft was a large contributing factor to the fact that there has not been a repeat of 9/11.
I hope that they throw the book at this idiot but rest assured that thousands of ethical FFDOs are still flying safely and professionally.
With locked cockpit doors, and passengers now willing to take down such attempts, and random armed agents on board, one can wonder why a gun is needed up front.
“ Dunn told the Captain they would be shot multiple times if the Captain diverted the flight,”
Seems to me, that “they” is the operative word here. As in, our passengers are going to revolt if we divert. Given the unruliness of passengers these days, not an unreasonable comment.
These are all “close the barn door….” events anyway (1). 9/11 happen because the terrorist had the first mover advantage of trying something never attempted before (in the past hijackers wanted something: money, release of prisoners, or transport to Cuba but never just to die).
Besides, all safety measures are a double-edged sword. When we make it so passengers can’t break through the cabin door, then an unstable copilot locks the door when the captain goes to the head & the copilot crashes the plane. If you add a secret button or code, then terrorists can torture a crew member to find/get it.
I’m not sure a gun would help very much, except when there is a single kook/terrorist. If the pilot shoots one, then the rest will likely take hostages. Then what? (oh yeah, the cockpit door is also open).
(1) actually, a similar plan to crash planes into west coast cities was interrupted in Manila earlier. But through failure of imagination, we couldn’t extrapolate that to the US.
I think you’re reading too much into the pronoun. My guess is that the singular “they” was used so as not to divulge the gender of the Captain in question.
Correct.
As a FFDO…Thank you Ned S. and jdeadly for your comments.. BTW: PILOTS wanted the FFDO program after 911.. The program falls under the SSI (sensitive security information act).. So your not really supposed to talk about the program period.. The program has had it’s growing issues at the inception.. What the public does not know are all the thwarted attempts prevented by Air Marshalls and FFDO’s over the past 20 years.. The FFDO program was under the radar as it should be until the jump seater incident where a former pilot was on Fox news mentioning he was a former FFDO and of course this latest Idiot incident put the program on the radar.. We need the deterrence. Especially now with the current climate in the middle east.
Boy. Where to start, jdeadly?
Children learn how to concoct fantastic “what if” questions, which are a good measure of their imagination and mastery of causality. Adults have enough experience to have developed some sense of probability, if not the supporting math. The airlines, FAA, and scientists have determined that the “hardened” post-9/11 cockpits are sufficient to protect the flying public from hijackers, at a cost that the flying public will accept. So please cite the data that supports your assertion that FFDOs are any factor in preventing a hijacking, much less another 9/11. Correlation is not causation, and as is often the case with knee-jerk reactions, the cure is worse than the disease.
On the other hand, the FAA has quite a number of rules against the transport of dangerous devices, substances, and creatures on passenger airliners. An armed human checks two of those boxes, three if he’s been self-prescribing ‘shrooms. And, as that deadheading pilot proved, being properly trained, credentialed, and vetted is no guarantee of safety. The fact that little Joey can’t visit Capt. Oveur in the cockpit any more, is a small price to pay.
To take your assertion past the point of absurdity: due to the stellar record of FFDO’s aboard passenger aircraft, we should demand that every flight have one, should we not? Heaven forfend that a hijacker pick a flight without one! One could make a compelling argument that, given the data provided, a rosary hanging from the whiskey compass would be just as effective.
Typical hoplophobe response, I guess you would get rid of Federal Air Marshalls on flights too?
Using your illogical argument against the deterrence effect of having FFDOs on airliners, can we prove that recurrent training for pilots has prevented mishaps from happening? Empirically the program has worked, there is no mechanism to prove that it doesn’t work.
BTW, what is “forfend”? Perhaps you were a bit unhinged about having armed pilots protecting airplanes and lost control of your keyboard?
Geez……here we go again! Those DAMN GUNS, causing problems AGAIN!
Long may American gun laws allow the antics of the demented, but I presume Americans will continue to keep the world entertained. As for the ensuing comments, I wonder whether they are helpful? I would like to presume that Jonathon J Dunn has disqualified himself from being allowed anywhere near an aircraft, let alone a flight deck. A viewpoint from far away in the South Pacific.
And yet, no one was hurt, or killed, or even soiled themselves.
That’s what I would call a non-issue.
I think we definitely need the full story here.
Actually the airline cockpit is equipped with a crash ax, fire extinguisher and if the other crew member wants to be serious, a garrote will do just fine. A crewmember feigns the need to get up for a stretch while you are fastened quite securely into your flight deck seat. I’ve watched rotund crewmembers struggle to get out of their seat at the culmination of the flight… they would be useless in a struggle initiated from behind their back. So there, that’s rest of the story!
The headline and intro says the captain was threatened, then it slips into the plural… Which makes me think it is another case of why jump seats should not be occupied.
Agree with everyone talking of the dangers of guns on aircraft.
Cases I remember are of soldiers, who logically are the best trained shooters, having accidental discharges in aircraft and on the tarmac. One centimetre to the left and good by control cables….
Lol, as a former Army officer, logic is misleading. Sadly, most of the Army used to get very little firearms training until a war started. Also, an army with an inadequate training budget inevitably has discipline problems and recruiting and retention issues leading to poor quality troops.
Add to that many of the weapons are allowed to stay in inventory WAY past the time they should, and you get what you get.
The “slip into the plural” is not what it may seem. The “they” is almost certainly being used in the singular to mask the gender of the captain. This is now a relatively common usage. (I think it probably means in this case that the captain was female, which might have been an added aggravation for the angry male FO.)
Program’s been ongoing for twenty years with statistically unmeasurable incidents caused by the participants. It’s successfully provided a deterrent in a layered defense that has prevented another use of airliners as WMD’s. Then some narcissistic, jackass FO opens his big mouth, and the hoplophobes scurry out and immediately melt down.
Secondary barriers could eliminate the need for FFDO’s, but government and airlines want nothing to do with the cost. They’re still decades away. Instead of posting illogical diatribes, maybe drop the gun phobia and push for barriers.
Ask all the Germanwings people onboard how many firearms in the cockpit there were to drive that plane into a mountain….TSA will confiscate your unopened bottle of gatorade but last time i checked pilots still are literally controlling the airplane, guns or not. I think a majority of armchair captains here never have even seen a gun outside of a news article, or an airliners cockpit for that matter.
Oh, and nobody has made any matter about the dozens of plain clothes Air Marshals who are armed and could take over a plane too… its almost like, we all are relying on trust in one another to not do something psychotic, since anyone could do something horrible if they REALLY wanted. How about we start asking why – people are feeling it necessary to take their problems out on others- instead of why -is XXX weapons or things capable of being weapons in cockpits (fire axe, extinguisher, pens in shirt pocket etc)- …logical thinking aside.
Quote: “Dunn told the Captain they would be shot….”
C’mon, man…ONE “Captain” can’t be a “they”. Just doesn’t work that way in the English language I was taught.
Remember the old saying “if guns are outlawed, only the outlaws will have guns”.
Also: “an armed society is a polite society”
This, if everybody’s packing, nobody draws, lest they become Swiss cheese.
Years ago, my wife worked near a strip mall that had a gun store in it. Arizona did that back then. Some Darwin-award-hopeful walked past a police cruiser, into the store and announced his intent to rob the place, drawing his gun. Neglecting to consider that the officer and any customers might be packing. 20+ rounds later he resembled said cheese, everyone else holstered their weapons and started filling out paperwork.
I don’t know if he made the Darwin award or not.